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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 18, 2009 - 01:29pm PT
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Put a helmet on the kid, make her a chest harness from a crossed runner or webbing, listen to other's input with an open mind, make the decision how much risk you feel is appropriate, determine if she is capable, and let her decide if she's ready.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jun 18, 2009 - 01:39pm PT
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Nice Fish those are great pics man.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jun 18, 2009 - 01:40pm PT
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Its kind of silly to ask a kid to wear a helmet when the parents don't. I do a lot of ice climbing so a helmet is pretty natural to me. I just kind of forget to take it off in the spring. the new helmets are so light and they work better than the old ones so appart from the cost they shouldn't cramp your style too much and may save your butt...
For those of you who are teaching kids to climb maby its a thought to change your habbits? thats what parents have to do. I know friends who had to stop doing druggs when they found their kids running arround the house pretending to do lines..
It sounds like a pretty close call with all the troubble getting that last bolt clipped but all is well that ends well as long as you learn from it without getting hurt.
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apogee
climber
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Jun 18, 2009 - 01:49pm PT
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"Its kind of silly to ask a kid to wear a helmet when the parents don't."
I would agree to the extent that it is poor role modelling- it's much easier to get buy-in from your kid (or a client, or a student) when they see you do the same thing. From a physiologic standpoint, however, a child's skull is generally more vulnerable than a mature adults, and the brain is more easily affected/damage. From that standpoint, helmets generally make more sense for kids than they do for adults.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jun 18, 2009 - 01:54pm PT
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regardless of weather or not the adult thinks they need a helmet if you want to teach a kid to wear a helmet you have to wear one yourself. just like trying to keep your kids off drugs when you are a stoner. Chances are pretty good it's not going to work.
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froodish
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 18, 2009 - 01:54pm PT
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@apogee
> From a physiologic standpoint, however, a child's skull is generally
> more vulnerable than a mature adults, and the brain is more easily
> affected/damage. From that standpoint, helmets generally make more sense
> for kids than they do for adults.
The other major difference...
Presumably as an adult you're able to understand the potential consequences of not wearing a helmet and make an informed choice. The same cannot be said for an 8 year old.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 18, 2009 - 02:21pm PT
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Until my kid(s) is 18 he is doing what I say. I have many years of learning how to fall and learning how to not fall, he doesn't. He once asked me why he needed a helmet on a bike ride around the block while I don't. I said "I've ridden a bike for many years and I'm doing an easy ride with you. But you could crash and hit your head and be killed. If I was doing jumps or riding in traffic I would wear a helmet." He sees me wearing a helmet other times. I explain the reasons for things to my kid and he grasps them, they are smart.
Kids don't have the experience or judgement to know when they should wear a helmet, so they should wear it all the time when there is a danger of head trauma. Ice skating (especially hockey), skateboarding, horseback riding, etc. all have the potential for a hard blow to the head on a hard surface, my kids will wear a helmet for those. Soccer is dangerous but the injuries are broken bones, or a ball to the face, a helmet isn't needed IMO.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 18, 2009 - 02:29pm PT
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Fet-- You should take yr campaign to each and every playground and gymnasium in the u.s., then. Ever watch 9 yr olds on a swing set? Jungle gym? Walk into any good women's gymnastics programs and check out what the top 8-10yr olds are doing on the beam and the bars. Don't even think about the routines of the 12 yr olds-- you'd stroke out.
So far as soccer is concerned, the real danger is in fact head trauma. Weirdly enough, headers produce so much force that a series of studies have found serious and recurring head trauma among kids of all age groups who play well enough to head the ball.
I'm not working you because I think your points are necessarily incorrect (we generally agree that kids can't make the same judgments as adults), but to point out what we see as "helmet territory" is largely culturally conditioned and bears only a tenuous relation to real dangers.
Certain types of sport climbing and bouldering are probably at least as safe than any of the activities I've just instanced where virtually no one uses a helmet or would think to. Yet mention the word "climbing," and folks are getting ready to call CPS.
From a rational point of view, if your objective is to limit head injuries in children, then kids should have the helmets strapped on round the clock. Or we could just duct tape them to the sofa.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jun 18, 2009 - 02:50pm PT
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I am still a kid at heart and I think I know a bit about how kids think. Deep down you want to be like dad. You can force your kid to do something when you are there but if you want to have them actually do it when you are not arround then you have to make it something that they want to do VS something they have been told to do. You all can do whatever you want. no skin off my back just pointing out that telling kids to do something and haveing them actually do it are entirely different things... I personaly don't know any stoner parents without stoner kids and I seriously doubt that there are many kids out there who wear helmets climbing unsupervised who's parents did not wear helmets. All well and good if you don't care if your kid ends up wearing a helmet or not. Bike helmet is fine with me BTW or no helmet or whatever. The car seat thing is an effin stupid analogy. kids grow out of car seats. Climbing may be a life long endevor so you may be trying to give your kid good habbits to carry with them down that road..... or not ;)
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apogee
climber
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Jun 18, 2009 - 03:06pm PT
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Don't misread my last post- I am a huge advocate for helmets for adults or kids, especially when conditions (or experience/skill) dictates it. There is a difference, though, between the behavioral tactics that are effective in getting someone to wear a helmet (i.e. role modelling) vs. the physiologic differences b/w an adult & a child. While trauma to anyone's skull can result in injury, a child's skull/brain is somewhat more vulnerable.
I often wonder just how many anti-helmet people have ever personally known anyone who has sustained a brain injury (esp. before & after their incident), or have spent time with brain injured people in any kind of treatment facility. It would be interesting to see how their opinions changed after spending some time with those who have had their lives change due to brain injury.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 18, 2009 - 03:13pm PT
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apogee-- i'm not anti-helment. If someone wants to wear a helmet, they should. If someone want their kids to wear helmets, then they should have them wear helmets. If spomeone wants me or my kids to wear helmets, then they should politely mention it, once, in a low-key way, and then STFU.
yes, i worked in adaptive p.e. for about a year or so with at least two folks who had suffered motor damage as a result of head trauma. (motorcycle accidents.)
and yes, i've had several friends either die or suffer long-term problems from head injuries. (playground, horseback riding, climbing, and football over and over.)
lots of dangerous stuff in the world.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Jun 18, 2009 - 03:14pm PT
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Where is Ouch! when we really need him.
By now we would have had pictures of a kid leading trad in diapers.
Anybody have a kid who has lead sport before he could even walk?
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 18, 2009 - 04:42pm PT
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You have to look at the specific activity's likelihood and consequences of a head injury. Lead climbing = a real chance of a forcefull blow to the head and against a friggin' rock. if that's not a situation that calls for a helmet, what is?
Rock climbing is too small a sport to be regulated (thank goodness), but the govt. and society does have a responsibility to enforce safety measures for children who can't make their own decisions in some circumstances IMO. Some people aren't capable of making good decisions for their children, e.g. a parent that denies medical treatment for their kids for BS reasons. There's a big grey area about what shold be allowed or what should be regulated, but saftey gear for certain situations is pretty cut and dry to me as an example of still allowing people to engage in activites they want, while taking reasonable precautions for kids who can't make their own informed decisions. Bike Helmets are required in Cali for minors. As much as I dislike govt. intervention in how I raise my kids I support this law. Many irresponsible parents would otherwise not buy or make their kids wear helmets, despite the evidence and lives saved. I'm pragmatic and my ideolgy of limited govt. regulation takes a backseat to saving kids lives or preventing serious injuries. Life Jackets are also now required in CA state parks when kids are near water. Again I'm in support of this, it saves kids lives, and the kid's right to reasonable safety measures outweighs a parent's right to raise their children without any regulation.
As a parent it also makes it easier to say to my kid "sorry you have to wear a life jacket, seatelt, helmet, etc. it's the law." Rather than try to explain to him why it's a good idea (which I do as well, but he can't argue with the law).
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 18, 2009 - 04:45pm PT
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Hey Fet:
So you'd favor laws that mandate helmets for rock-climbing, gymnastics, horseback riding, and what else? Not needling you, genuinely curious.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 18, 2009 - 04:56pm PT
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klk, you are making unreasonable assumptions.
To prove it:
Here's a photo of my son leading with no helmet!
I got some comments about him not having a helmet when this was first posted. First of all the photo is exaggerrated for effect/fun. It's 3rd class. There wasn't any real potential for a fall that would result in a head blow. However if it was a 5th class lead (which I possibly would let him do) he would absof*#kinlutely have a helmet.
I could spin your statements into unreasonable assumptions too. You'd favor giving kids loaded guns with no training, letting them drive cars, BASE jump, what else?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 18, 2009 - 05:08pm PT
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Well, that was helpful-- so you don't support helmet laws for kids in climbing? That seemed to be the logical thrust of yr earlier posts. And I'm not saying that it's a ridiculous proposition. I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen in some not very distant future.
In fact, given the large number of climbers now comfortable with "belay test" and "leader certification" as part of their intro to the sport, I could easily imagine mandatory licensing for all lead climbers in National Parks or something equally grim, if there were money enough for the enforcing bodies to police it.
But yeah, I was surprised at the level of criticism Chinchen and Dingus's pix generated.
Guns? I learned to shoot at maybe age four or so.
Auto licenses are a different matter, largely because driving has been legally defined as a "privilege." I started driving when I was 13 because we were haying and needed someone to drive the truck. No, they didn't have me wear a helmet. Although maybe they should've worn them-- almost tossed my uncle off the bed a couple times before I got the hang of using a clutch, hehe.
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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Jun 18, 2009 - 05:20pm PT
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Have fun out there, Jason - I am in LA with my woman now.
Shoot me a message and I'll give you Pennsylenvy's contact info.
The Doctor is on vacation in Utah, or I'd hook you up with him.
Erik
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 18, 2009 - 05:56pm PT
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No I don't support a law for kid's climbing helmets, I hope climbing stays under the radar and unregulated. It probably will because because not many people climb.
I do support seat belt laws, car seats, education, etc. requirements for kids.
For private vs. public requirements:
In the climbing gym I'm ok with requiring helmets for kids. For soccer teams I'm ok with requiring shin guards.
I was in a ski jumping competition this year that required helmets. Some of the competitors didn't bring helmets (reading comprehension - a good indicator of seriousness) and were pissed they couldn't jump without them. I was thinking if your going to jump 100 feet and don't want to wear a helmet you really don't understand the risk involved. One of the dudes borrowed a helmet, jumped, and almost crashed...
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