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Chris2
Trad climber
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Jun 17, 2009 - 06:09pm PT
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Excellent post...congrats to your daughter and yourself.
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Gene
climber
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Jun 17, 2009 - 06:22pm PT
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A word in support of TIG.
His motive is safety. His point is valid. Sh#t happens. Most of us disagree in this case cuz all came out fine. I'm glad he made me think about my kids, their ability, maturity, competence and all that good stuff. The downside should be measured against the upside & vice versa.
My opinion is that Kid and Mom/Dad can (and did) make the decision. Proud send for the young lady. But if TIG makes us think a little harder about putting the munchkin on the sharp end, props to him.
gm
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Jun 17, 2009 - 06:36pm PT
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Mostly right gene.
One other thing. Most of the time nobody will second guess you when things go right.
When things go wrong - everybody will pile on. Look at GM, Wall Street, AIG, Iraq.
See this site for climbing accident examples. Everybody becomes an instant-expert, even before they have found out the facts. Half the people don't even care to wait for or can even recognize the facts.
If our kid dies, or "worse" becomes permanently disabled, the press, and local district attorney may need to find a guilty party. The government may spare no tax-payer expense in this.
Anybody want to hazard a guess at how much a successful defense against child-endangerment charges costs in direct legal bills and other indirect costs?
Think about it.
Then do what you will!
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Stonedeaf
Social climber
misreading rock everywhere
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Jun 17, 2009 - 06:52pm PT
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The author wrote "Isn't falling part of climbing" Maybe I'm to old school ( i do have hexs on my rack) but I was taught The leader must not fall.
Rule 2 was don't push yourself with both gear and grade at once. A fall on a first lead, coupled with missing the clip 4-5 times suggests more gear experience.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Jun 17, 2009 - 06:52pm PT
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TIG has a valid point:
"If our kid dies, or "worse" becomes permanently disabled, the press, and local district attorney may need to find a guilty party. The government may spare no tax-payer expense in this."
Of course most of us - me included - think that society is pretty stupid to say that climbing rock is a "reckless" sport while climbing a tree is "something kids just do."
Dangerous? Sure. Life is dangerous. Reckless? Not as reckless as letting kids kick balls around in the street when the US driving tests let total idiots get a drivers license.
But society reacts in illogical ways, just as anytime a climber dies climbing (or a hiker falls off a cliff), newspaper articles headline the event and question climbing as a pursuit - but if someone dies in a car accident, no mention at all unless it causes a big traffic jam.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 17, 2009 - 06:55pm PT
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TradIsGood - good posts today. The explanations and neutrality are good.
I have lived the "survivor fallacy" myself. I used to think there was "something special" about my car, or where/when I parked it - bears did not break into it, although they broke into other cars. Later I confirmed I had just been lucky in the past, when a bear did break into my car.
Maybe I even have a "victim fallacy" - maybe my subjective estimate of the risk is higher than reality for my children climbing, because I have experienced climbing injuries and deaths of friends/family.
Witnessing my young son being struck by a car while on his bicycle just behind me - that was not a good feeling. But we still let him ride his bike. I feel kids should experience some level of risk so they gain an understanding - if they are mentally ready, and if failure is survivable at some very high probability.
We also have family adventures. Although the kids rarely rock climb and don't lead on rock, we have done some mountaineering where occasionally the consequences of a slip would be fatal. Usually we get out the rope for those situations, but not always, as sometimes anchors are inadequate. Maybe I suffered from "summit fever". When hiking the semi-via ferrata on Angel's Landing, I did tie my youngest son into a short rope 20' behind me. I knew I could hold him if he slipped and it helped me relax.
I think one of the challenges of parenting is "when do I treat my child differently than I treat myself?" I.e. what is "age appropriate". The simplest situation where this has come up is watching R-rated videos or movies. Some parents are more permissive about this than others. One of our kids complained a bit that we didn't allow them to watch R stuff at our house - they said it was not fair, etc. So I had to think carefully to explain why I thought it was age inappropriate. I said R was bad for them, because they might gain the impression that violent acts were normal behavior. (By implication, adults would hopefully be able to discount the illusions routinely offered by movies).
Whether leading a closely bolted 5.7 is "age appropriate" for an 8 year old, I'm not sure. No doubt Chinchen knows her better than I do, although parents can be subject to biases as well. I like Stonedeaf's observation that she was not ready in terms of the gear/clipping ability. I think we have to trust Chinchen's observation that she was a little rattled on lead, as he had trained her in clipping (maybe not with the rope weight for the highest bolt, though?).
My intended point in my original post was slightly different - I meant to say that there might be better/safer sports to encourage kids to participate in. I still think of climbing as mainly a fringe activity for the people that are too small/light for mainstream sports (myself included). I'm happy that our kids are more into running than climbing.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 17, 2009 - 08:56pm PT
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So on my first trip to Fontainebleau, I'm down at Elephant when a big school bus pulls up and about three dozen yelling kids of various ages, maybe 6-10, pour out of the bus and immediately begin swarming up everything on the children's circuit. No shoes, no chalk, no pof, no helmets, no ropes, a few teacher-chaperones (not climbers-- all three were women, dressed in their dresses and cardigans), and that's it.
I see variations on this theme everywhere I go in Europe.
Are Americans really too weak or cautious to allow that sort of thing? If the country is headed in that direction, then the last thing we ought to do is pander to it.
By all means, steer your own children away from climbing, if that's what you prefer.
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Choss Gee
Trad climber
Wyoming/Utah
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Jun 17, 2009 - 09:50pm PT
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It's probably alot safer than my dad putting me on a piped, bored, ported and polished CR80 and telling me he'll give me 50 bucks if i can top it out at the age of 8 haha.
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Jun 17, 2009 - 10:14pm PT
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TSG " His motive is safety"
Bullshiiit his motive to shove his ideas down others' throats.
He is the kind of person who thinks that everyone who drives slower than him is an idiot and everyone who drives faster than him is reckless.
I feel sorry for him.
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chez
Social climber
chicago ill
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Jun 17, 2009 - 10:58pm PT
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KLK,
Fountainbleu:
Thats a great little story. Responsability at its finest. If that were to happen on the eastside here in mammoth and a child was to fall on school time and get seriously hurt at the local bouldering area, the school would be finished. It's hard enough with the budget cuts just recently announced.
Then again if you saw the parents involved in the school you would realize that would never happen.
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apogee
climber
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Jun 17, 2009 - 11:14pm PT
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"There is another fallacy - one that most parents recognize when their kids say "Well Johnny does it"."
TiG, no matter how hard you try to explain why you believe that an 8 y/o shouldn't lead, Chinchen and many others are likely to feel differently. So back off, and let it go.
While I agree that 8 y/o is too young to be on the sharp end, I don't know this guy's kid, and more to the point, she isn't my daughter. The list of judgement calls a parent makes about what to allow their kid to do and when is a long, long list, and lead climbing, while pretty unique, is really not much different from any other choice this parent might make. The phenomenon of 'non-event feedback' seems to apply here- because nothing bad has ever happened to me, it won't happen in the future. Hopefully, that is far, far from the truth, that this young girl is remarkably skilled, her father has been very diligent in his supervision and judgement of her readiness, and the experience will become an important, guiding moment in her life. Since I don't know any of these people, and wasn't there, I choose to offer Chinchen the benefit of the doubt, and congratulate them on a great day.
Edit: By the way, Chinchen, having taught rock climbing to a lot of ~8 y/o's, a suggestion for future climbing (besides the need for a helmet). Young kids have a different center of gravity than adults do- they tend to be top heavy- which probably contributed to the somewhat inverted fall she took. Until she grows a bit more, you might consider either a full-body harness, or a chest harness along with her seat harness. Kind of cumbersome for leading, I know, but may help avert future inverted falls.
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Chinchen
climber
Living on the road
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2009 - 12:14am PT
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Thanks again, and Anika thanks the supporters also..
To be clear, my comment that I never hit my head was far from a statement that it would never happen. I thought that pointing out that I have experience in the real world of serious injury and death would explain that, but I see that I must be more clear. I was merely saying that the chances are minimal. I will say that for an inexperienced leader the chances are greater because the person may not know to jump over the rope, position themselves for the impact, etc... but that took me time to figure out also. But not before I was handed some harsh rope burn to the back of my legs.
As for the harness suggestion, She has a very well fitted harness and she is also very proportional, not to say that it wouldn't be a good idea, but I probably wont shell out the cash for that, maybe a webbing version would be sufficient.
I cant wait to post the next set of pics!
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jun 18, 2009 - 04:16am PT
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Haha look at this thread. And people bitch about political threads.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jun 18, 2009 - 05:39am PT
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hey there chichen... say, very nice pics and she seems to be doing a good job...
now, as for me... i am a bit agreeing with trad and clint..
but then, a bit agreeing with tami...
a bit agreeing with todd...
and a bit agreeing with you... :)
OH MY...
meaning--first off,helmet, yet...
folks don't understand what one head injury can do...
also, (tami knows about skates)...skates, many many parents are getting kids into ice skateing early.. for speed or figure skating..
also, it is a very common winter sport... my grandson learened early, for hockey.... but he wanted to, and pushed for it...
all such things are a risk--it is part of life:
BUT--- with rock climbing, i do think a child, even through being a child, should be informed of the risk (it is up to the parent how to do this, without making the child "scared to death"...
but then, you knowwwwwww, a fall, or an accident, also, can make one "scared to death" ,so also, a parent's warning and speaking the facts need not be feared as doing that, as to that one aspect...
with any thing, driving, trip, sports, horses, swimming, etc,
the main thing is go by your own "personal gut feeling" and follow through with as much safety as is in your hands to do so...
prayer sure is good too...
as for my kids:
all these years later, looking back, my kids could have fallen from a tree and died... yet, they climbed trees like monkeys, and all because we did, as kids... we knew if fell, we were in big pain-hurt-trouble... (i really don't think any of us knew we could die, or be paralyzed though... no one told us!)...
i thank god to this day that my kids climbed trees and were blessed to be safe... me, too, for that matter...
but a child, running and playing, can die from that, too, sadly... so all kids should be taught to just plain old be careful and ilimate the majority of and thus, face what is left, the best one can...
on thing that is true, too... once a parent knows their child and feels that they are "co-ordinated" enough, or mentally mature enough, etc.. or maybe just plain informed enough, or hungry for it, well, once past that, and with the sport, or climb, or dance, or whatever... the earlier they have training, the more it will be part of their nature, as they age...
very tricky stuff here... handled with care, and knowing what you may face, is all one can do...
...well...
last note...
my son took up suring when he was a young teen... it was his desicion, and at that point, and he was driving...
he taught himself and was very good, considering the texas gulf (haha)...
well, i had to set my face to accept the fact that he may die.... and he had to accept that, too...
and he near felt it happen once... he only quit when he was married and a daughter... she needs him... (she has a syndrom, too.. but he still feels a kid needs its father)...
course, he was older... but the point is:
no matter what a child does, the parent must be prepared in case that child does die or become crippled in some way, when a parent has decided to let a child do dangerous sports, otherwise, you will have a regret all your life...
then, love them dearly each and every day, and teach them to be wise in all they do...
well... thats it for me...
oh, wait.. one last thing..
my mom was scared all those years that mark climbed... and she really didn't want to even think about it...
but--she let him go, and she let him climb... but he was a pre-teen then... he just had to be him... and she kind of knew it, ven if she had to face hurt later, she knew it...
i thank god for all our good years... and for my kid's good years as well...
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 18, 2009 - 12:06pm PT
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"KLK,
Fountainbleu:
Thats a great little story. Responsability at its finest. If that were to happen on the eastside here in mammoth and a child was to fall on school time and get seriously hurt at the local bouldering area, the school would be finished. It's hard enough with the budget cuts just recently announced."
Actually, it's pretty healthy. American climbers on the forums are always whining about how Europe is all nanny states and communism, but let someone's kid climb without a helmet or a tourist slip on the cables route, and suddenly all the libertarianism vanishes and folks start edging toward serious suggestions for government regulation of the sport.
So far as Mammoth, I can easily believe that outdoor sports could be off the table for liability as well as financial reasons. So no field trips to the skate park, eh?
We could just get rid of all the playgrounds in the state-- swingsets, jungle gyms, hell, even tether ball can be dangerous. Then we could auction off the property and chip away at the debt.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Jun 18, 2009 - 12:12pm PT
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How did so many of us survive childhood without a helmet on everytime we played sports?
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Chinchen
climber
Living on the road
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2009 - 12:25pm PT
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Im off to Indian Creek to shotgun beers and dangle my kids from cliffs upside down so I wont be able to participate this week, enjoy the smear campaign. Ill be in Flagstaff next week if anyone wants to show me around the local crags that would be cool! (MisterE)
Peace!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 18, 2009 - 12:28pm PT
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Fishy, that's pretty awesome, nice pics!
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