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Chinchen
climber
Living on the road
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 15, 2009 - 11:53am PT
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We are in Durango trying to make a go of life here. Things are well, applying for work right and left and meeting great people. We went up to a place called Lemon Reservoir to camp and climb last week. Cool quartz rock of some kind on both sides of a picture perfect mountain creek. I found a little 3 bolt 5.7 to set up for the kids, tied my son Kaleb and the Cinch to a rock and set it up....
After three runs on it my daughter who is 8 tells me she wants to lead it...I had mentioned earlier that if either wanted to try leading that this might be a good climb.
I spent some time showing her how to clip and let her practice that and explained other important points. Then off she went. I was nervous of course but the climb was almost vertical and safe for a fall.
Anika just placed 11th in the Teva games and has grown in confidence through that experience and is showing real talent. She fell once right above the second bolt, she wouldn't say so but Im sure the sharp end rattled her a bit. The climb went just left of the bolt there and her feet caught the rope spinning her around. She got a few small scrapes on her back and broke into tears from the sudden fall.I went ahead to lower her and she yelled at me NO! Im gonna do it!....
Damn!
She proceeded to send the rest of the climb even with a lengthy struggle trying to clip the last bolt. I'm down below paying out and reeling in as she misses the clip 4 or 5 times....sweating bullets..
Anika pulled it off with style and grace as she does on everything she climbs.
Am I proud? Hell yea!
Did I learn something? She will wear a helmet on lead from now on...
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jun 15, 2009 - 11:58am PT
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Awesome! Just went thru this with my daughter last year, and two of her friends also. They all led their first sport climb on a trip to Red Rocks and were so proud of themselves. It is a great thing for a kids self confidence and made me feel pretty good as well. Cool you got the photos. I did also, now if I just knew how to post them....
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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Jun 15, 2009 - 12:18pm PT
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Way to go! A big step for both of you.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Jun 15, 2009 - 04:15pm PT
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I was nervous of course but the climb was almost vertical and safe for a fall.
...
She got a few small scrapes on her back and broke into tears from the sudden fall.
Safe compared to what? Sounds like there was an injury involved.
I'm down below paying out and reeling in as she misses the clip 4 or 5 times....sweating bullets..
Sweating bullets? Why? It was safe, after all.
Did I learn something?
Hope so. But it does not sound like you learned enough. Maybe by posting this you will. But in all likelihood you are just looking for confirmation that your choice was good, which you will mostly get on this forum, I predict. The fact that she was not seriously injured this time and your peers will convince you that a bad choice was good.
The kid is 8 years old. Society expects you to exercise adult judgment enough to make up for your child's lack of good judgment. Some times you are supposed to simply say, "No. You are not old enough yet."
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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Jun 15, 2009 - 04:18pm PT
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Don't pay any attention to "Mr. Piss On Your Fire", Jason -
Proud! Tough girl to keep going after the fall!
Erik
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jun 15, 2009 - 04:25pm PT
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Chinchen, thanks. That is what it is all about. Without times like you showed us here, there is no point in perpetuating this at all!
Trad is good, you will delete if you have any grace, at all.
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jean
Trad climber
Cardiff-by-the-Sea
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Jun 15, 2009 - 04:27pm PT
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Congrats to your daughter! A shiny new helmet would be a great congratulations gift. :)
A helmet when leading is always a good idea. As you saw, it's super easy to get the rope in the wrong place and flip if you fall.
My parents always encouraged us to do what we loved - and we tended to love the "less-safe" fun, like sprint car racing, skiing, ski racing, snowboarding, climbing... All my Mom ever asked was that we wore a helmet (fire suit, neck restraints - whatever the sport needed).
Encourage her (and be safe)!
-jean
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piquaclimber
Trad climber
Durango
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Jun 15, 2009 - 04:34pm PT
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Congrats to Anika!
Welcome to Durango!
Ignore the detractors.
Cheers,
Brad
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Chinchen
climber
Living on the road
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 15, 2009 - 04:38pm PT
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Thanks guys, and its a good thing I didn't need any confirmation.....because that means I didn't need a lecture either.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 15, 2009 - 04:43pm PT
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Impressive.
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Jun 15, 2009 - 04:43pm PT
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Chinchen,
Very cool, looks like fun. Do not worry about Trailisbad, he jumped all over my ass when I posted about my daughters first lead.
Cheers
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Thorgon
Big Wall climber
Sedro Woolley, WA
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Jun 15, 2009 - 04:47pm PT
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Fearless at that age!
Congrats,
Thor
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Chinchen
climber
Living on the road
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 15, 2009 - 04:50pm PT
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Cool pic!
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Jun 15, 2009 - 04:50pm PT
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Chinchen, cool! She's really lucky to have such a great dad. Proud send.
TIG, WTF?
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Jim E
climber
away
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Jun 15, 2009 - 04:54pm PT
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Awesome! Congrats, Anika!
My daughter, also 8, is looking to maybe do her first lead next week. We're going on our first family climbing trip and she's pretty stoked about the whole thing. Me too for that matter.
edit: Please put a helmet on her.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jun 15, 2009 - 04:57pm PT
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So awesome man! I'm really looking forward to that day with my own daughter. Please stick a bucket on that kid, tia.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 15, 2009 - 05:05pm PT
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Congrats on her first lead.
I'm guessing that 'safety first' sentiment is whay Raj can't serve in Iraq despite he and Dad being rabid proponents of that war.
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Jun 15, 2009 - 05:06pm PT
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Eight years old? Are you kidding me???? I've been climbing as long as she's been alive and 5.7s can still grab my attention. Whoof! Good on her!
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hooblie
climber
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Jun 15, 2009 - 05:21pm PT
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boy, ya i'd be nervous. but i'd be even nervouser about bicycles and traffic. that's such a common rite of passage it is hardly noteworthy.
i'm not a naysayer. passing the torch of resposibilty in many small steps is good because before long they'll snatch it away anyways. if they've had some sobering experiences by then...well, hey. we're all trying to load our fun plates without making a mess. it's good she knows that making the clip can be a challenge.
loved the story, glad i wasn't there. but then,release of tension equals joy. so, tell her hooblie says HOORAY!
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Gene
climber
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Jun 15, 2009 - 05:29pm PT
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Look at how she climbs! Great body position. After three top rope runs, she was ready to lead, especially if it was her idea. Way to go, young lady.
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Jun 15, 2009 - 05:29pm PT
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Very cool, yeah for the girls!..My 1 1/2 yr. old daughter scaled the rock wall at the park the other day...the strength to weight ratio of a kid has to be off the scale! Mine is definitely decreasing at an exponential rate!
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james Colborn
Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
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Jun 15, 2009 - 05:34pm PT
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Fantastic! Congrats to your girl! That is just plain awesome. Those images will be strong motivation to her in the future when it comes to all sorts of lifes' challenges.
Good luck in CO.
t.i.g. his kid, his choice, blow. Edit: His Kids Choice. Now Blow.
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mooser
Trad climber
seattle
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Jun 15, 2009 - 05:37pm PT
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Very cool, chinchen, and Anika! Thanks for posting the story and the pics, and may you have many more terrific days of climbing together ahead!
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jun 15, 2009 - 06:27pm PT
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I went ahead to lower her and she yelled at me NO! Im gonna do it!....
One tough little girl! Props to her and who raised her.
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Eric McAuliffe
Trad climber
Alpine County, CA
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Jun 15, 2009 - 09:00pm PT
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Dude, super raD!!! RIght on to her! that is AWESOME.
E
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 15, 2009 - 09:29pm PT
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Mixed feelings. If she was 16 and the lead was her idea, that's cool. But since she is 8 and you essentially suggested leading it, it was your idea. Her motivation may be in receiving your approval.
In our family, I don't invite our kids to climb with me. If one of our kids asks me to go climbing, that is different and I am happy to go with them. We try to encourage our kids to enjoy a variety of outdoor and indoor activities. I don't want them to think that the only way I'll be impressed with them is if they can climb hard.
My wife's brother died in a climbing accident, and it was tough on his parents and siblings. I was hurt badly in a climbing accident, and my parents said they regretted getting me into climbing. It's not for everybody, and kids should get a chance to make their own choices without undue influence from parents.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Jun 15, 2009 - 11:03pm PT
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Wow, all the way to 28 posts before somebody else agrees!
Now look at the pictures. How far was she from a concussion? Do you have any idea how common concussions are suffered by KIDS playing hockey wearing approved new hockey helmets? And you have your kid out there, with the "suggestion" that she lead without wearing, or even owning, proper safety equipment. (In USA Hockey, checking is prohibited until age 13!)
Just for the heck of it chinchen, put up the same post on a neurosurgeon or trial lawyer's web-site. If she had been taken to an emergency room with a concussion from an activity you deemed safe, you might find that the state was caring for your daughter and that you were now faced with spending whatever savings you had on lawyers.
Just to be clear, I am not criticizing what she did. She did not know any better. She just wants to impress her dad - perfectly normal at that age.
Since you post here, I assume you can read. Try reading the first few pages of any climbing guide. CLIMBING IS DANGEROUS.
Every book will say it. There might be a stack of them in evidence against you in the horrible event that your daughter got injured. The writers might be called to testify. They probably all know adults who were "experts" who died.
She is 8. Get over yourself and start looking out for her!
Yup. I am not here to win a popularity contest.Most people are reluctant to tell you what you don't want to hear. I call a spade a spade.
Consider yourself and your daughter lucky. The two of you barely dodged a bullet on this one. Sit down with her. Teach her something valuable - that even Daddy can make a mistake. Tell her that you are proud of her courage. But tell her also that she could have been seriously injured or even killed. That you will not let her do it again until she is older. She should be old enough to understand that climbing on your top-ropes can be very challenging, but safe.
For the rest of you climbers who love the sport: This is a good example of the type of behavior that could lead to state regulation (or elimination) of our sport. Start using the gray matter that you put that helmet on to protect!
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jun 16, 2009 - 12:48am PT
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Oh what a bunch of total baloney from Tradisgood, you're full of it dude. Kids climb all the time, climb hard, climb well, lead, sport climb, you name it. Why don't you ask the best climbers in the world when they started climbing? Younger you start, the better you are. I at no time see in the photos where the girl was at risk of anything more then a scrape. She was sport climbing. with a clean fall which she took, whoopy de do flipping do. Great confidence builder for kids. She needs to take some bigger falls. A little scrape is normal, part of the plan. My kids all started young climbing, and moved on to sport lead climbing. they don't do anything dangerous, they don't trad climb yet, they take falls, they scream, they have a blast, they belay each other, they are competent. They wear a helmet when the situation calls for it, loose rock above or other climbers. Well bolted sport climbs they don't always have a helmet on, although I encourage it in general for obvious reasons. Don't knock some guy teaching his kids to climb, just shows how out of the loop and how far from current reality you are.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jun 16, 2009 - 01:05am PT
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Putting a young child on the sharp end is YOUR DECISION AS A PARENT. If you think it's dumb then DON'T LET YOUR KIDS LEAD. Otherwise let other parents decide what is right for their kids. Christ what is wrong with you people.
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Hardluck
Social climber
N of Mexico, S of Sanity
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Jun 16, 2009 - 02:09am PT
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Congrats, Chinchen and all you other proud parents! My six-year-old son bagged his first lead on Saturday---a low-angle slab climb out in JTree. MP consensus says it's 5.4 (a REAL soft 5.4 IMO). He had a blast, as did I.
Tying in
The first clip
Anchors screaming for 3/8" wedge bolts. Going to fix that in a couple of weeks. Cratering may require repositioning.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Jun 16, 2009 - 03:38am PT
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Lots of advice from the "peanut gallery.".......Do we all love our children?......sure, you bet....Is life dangerous?.....sure; you bet. Helmet on kids while climbing, biking, hockey, football, skateboarding, etc;....sure, you bet. Driving in a car with children (very, very dangerous, but common so it "seems" safe....)....sure, you bet. What is a parent supposed to do?......put our kids in glass bubbles and not let them out?..........As parents, we can try to use good judgement, keep an eye on our wee ones, and then after that.....I guess just pray for their safe passage through the obsticle course known as "life".......and if and when they get hurt......pray some more for healing, lessons learned, and future safe passage.......and once they turn 18;..pray some more for judgement, common sense, good luck, and a spirit of adventure that takes them to places of wonderment, awe, growth, and discovery..............seems like Proud Papa is on course and moving ahead. There are lots of real and percieved dangers along the way;.........hold their hands, dive in, and enjoy it all together. Climbing is dangerous;...we all know that. Today my 3 boys were diving off a dresser onto the bed like Dan Osman..........what's a parent to do?...........(Did I mention praying already?....) Congrats on the first lead.....time to drop out of school, move to the Valley, take up smoking and drinking, and hang out with Bridwell............(I think I first shared a campfire with Bridwell when I was still in my teens...........oh boy.....)..............(Proud Papa and DMT;....great pics...thanks for sharing......)
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up2top
Big Wall climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Jun 16, 2009 - 04:12am PT
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Outstanding! Thanks for posting the photos.
TIG -- WTF??? Seriously -- WTF??
Ed
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 16, 2009 - 04:36am PT
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Now the video in this new thread does have some irresponsible child climbing in it...
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jun 16, 2009 - 07:28am PT
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Nice stuff Dingus and hardluck!
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Jun 16, 2009 - 10:56am PT
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My daughter still likes climbing a bit but not her favorite thing so we don't push too hard. She still leads her little climb once a year or so.
Spring Vacation
Camp cook-her first love
a bit of bouldering
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Jun 16, 2009 - 11:18am PT
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Yeah, I'd say I have mixed feelings about letting her lead. I'm all over my daughter climbing but I have to say I'd be a little more cautious. Certainly she'd be wearing a helmet. You must have sh#t a brick when she fell!
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lamadera
Trad climber
New Mexico
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Jun 16, 2009 - 11:39am PT
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My daughter has been leading for a couple of years (she's 9 now). She only leads when it's her idea. I agree a helmet is a good idea, although we often forget to bring it when sport climbing. In the last year she has gotten much stronger and cruises Indian Creek thin hands/finger stacks (on TR) that work me over. Our approach is that she has to go to the crags since it's a family event, she only climbs if she wants to. We've been doing that since she was 3 months old. It's all about having fun.
Maple Canyon last week:
Bouldering in the desert:
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Zander
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jun 16, 2009 - 11:45am PT
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Chinchen,
This is so cool!
Zander
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slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 16, 2009 - 11:47am PT
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When I have kids I'm gonna teach 'em how to rap bolt.
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apogee
climber
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Jun 16, 2009 - 11:50am PT
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Congrats on a first lead- you must be very proud. It's really nice to see kids out there developing a strong direction in their own lives.
That said, I probably wouldn't allow my 8 y/o (or 6 y/o!) to lead. Just too young, in my book (esp. w/o a helmet).
Edit: Then I watched this video...
http://www.glumbert.com/media/oldstuntman
..and lead climbing kids didn't look so bad after all....
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Chinchen
climber
Living on the road
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 16, 2009 - 01:18pm PT
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Thanks Yall.
A few things.
I have climbed for a long time, since I was 15 which would be 20 years now....Ive even climbed with some of you....
I have taken many, many, many sport falls and NEVER once have I hit my head.
Woofer, EMT, Paramedic training, emergency room internships, backcountry survival skills......Yea,...Im an idiot.
Saying that I should not let my daughter lead because it is bad parenting is akin to saying that I dont care about the safety and life of my precious daughter....
Get real.
My daughter is quite smart and has no problem telling me when she is not in the mood for an activity. I am very sensitive to my childrens needs and wants/dont wants...thats what good parents do.
Helmet aquired. Sleeves already discussed....
Thanks again for the pics and encouragement.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 16, 2009 - 01:34pm PT
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cool pix.
and i don't see sport climbing as necessarily any more dangerous than the stuff that 8 or 9 yr olds routinely do in gymnastics.
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murf02
climber
NYC
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Jun 16, 2009 - 01:57pm PT
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Many yrs ago climbing trees was a rite of passage for an 8 yr old boy. Ladies? And I don't even think they had helmets back then.
I remember once climbing up 25-30 feet with a rope attached to a branch on another tree at the same height 20 feet away. The plan was to make like Tarzan, but I made like a rock. It would have been nice to have a parent do the math for me ahead of time.
It's great that you're there for your daughter
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chez
Social climber
chicago ill
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Jun 16, 2009 - 11:26pm PT
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I'm torn on this one too. Can't blame TG, I'm sure the next time anyone reading this thread takes their yungins climbing they may think of this thread. May make their approach a little different may not, no harm done. My daughters of 5 and 6 are climbing all over the place in the trees and on the house but i havn't taken them climbing yet. I'm getting ready to but just 5.10 OW solo.
Just kidding about the OW. Just easy TR. Leading if they want to at a much later date, with helmets and very close bolts.
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slobmonster
Trad climber
berkeley, ca
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Jun 16, 2009 - 11:55pm PT
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Next time don't photo-document yer kid's whipper. On the plus side, she didn't lead it clean, so all the naysayers don't have much boom in their cannon.
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Jun 17, 2009 - 12:14am PT
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That's awesome Apogee...it does put things into perspective doesn't it?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 17, 2009 - 12:17am PT
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wow.....that's pretty cool.
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Chinchen
climber
Living on the road
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2009 - 01:42am PT
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I still don't get whats so bad about my daughter leading...
Don't document it?
Isn't falling part of climbing?
Its not like I racked her up and sent her up a finger crack in the desert without beta.
That comes when shes 9....
I stand by my decisions, and even admitted before anyone pointed it out that she would wear a helmet leading from now on.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jun 17, 2009 - 02:03am PT
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Don't sweat it Chinch. Ain't no one way to raise a kid.
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apogee
climber
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Jun 17, 2009 - 02:06am PT
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Look, Chinchen, there is no 'right' answer here- following a post like yours, you are going to find a bunch of varying views about what is the best way to raise a kid, how/if to expose a kid to climbing, when they should start leading...it's all pretty subjective. For every reason you or others can give to justify an 8 y/o leading, there are going to be just as many who can find reasons why it isn't a good idea. How is that any different from any other parenting decision?
If you feel very solid in your judgement to allow your 8 y/o to lead, then go forward confidently, and don't let a bunch of people with varying opinions sway your decision. No matter what others may believe, your kid had a great experience, and that is what matters. Revel in that- you are a lucky person.
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Chinchen
climber
Living on the road
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2009 - 02:08am PT
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Awesome, thanks.
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Omot
Trad climber
The here and now
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Jun 17, 2009 - 03:52am PT
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Alright for Anika! Doesn't seem like Chinchen is living his dreams through is daughter, but giving her the experience only a climbing parent can. Good on ya!
Tomo
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 17, 2009 - 04:07am PT
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I was forever climbing high in big trees in the midwest as a kid on through until I left for Vietnam. Several years later as a 'real' climber I couldn't make myself do some of the same fourth story tree-to-roof transitions I did all the time just a couple of years prior. No ropes, no helmets, no fear - until I became a climber - go friggin' figure. Then later as an arborist taking down big trees in downtown Chicago I got to where I was not really liking climbing in trees at all. Glad I couldn't forsee that progression as a little kid who just loved to monkey around.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Jun 17, 2009 - 05:16pm PT
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I have climbed for a long time, since I was 15 which would be 20 years now....Ive even climbed with some of you....
I have taken many, many, many sport falls and NEVER once have I hit my head.
There you have it! Since it NEVER happened to you, it won't happen to your daughter. Also since it never happened to you, it won't ever happen to any other climber. Since no climber will ever fall sport climbing and hit his head, there should never be a climber dying as a result of hitting his head on a sport climbing fall.
This is called the fallacy of the survivor, not that what it is called matters. It occurs all over the place, because people convince themselves from history that the future will be the same.
There is a similar fallacy, that bad things only happen to "the other guy", which is used to explain away the "fallen climbers" thread on this forum.
Saying that I should not let my daughter lead because it is bad parenting is akin to saying that I dont care about the safety and life of my precious daughter....
Get real.
No, this is also bad logic. Nobody said you don't care about your daughter. That you do, and that you are proud of her is obvious and admirable. What has been said is that you made a bad choice. Rather than admit to that (other than the helmet), you choose instead to take it personally and shoot the messenger.
My daughter is quite smart and has no problem telling me when she is not in the mood for an activity. I am very sensitive to my childrens needs and wants/dont wants...thats what good parents do.
If she is so smart, why aren't you bragging about her choice of colleges... Seriously, she is only 8. She might be a very smart 8. Maybe she even reads at the age 12 level. Perhaps she is doing algebra and can explain the forces on an anchor using vectors and is almost done with high school phyics.
Just being smart is not a qualification to lead climb. She does not NEED to lead climb.
Bravo, for your relationship with her. If she told you tomorrow that she wanted to experiment, just a little, with marijuana, I doubt that you would condone it, even if you had been using it yourself for years. If she started playing hockey next year, even though checking is a part of the professional and college level games, she would not be checking. The league she would be in would not allow it.
Consider just setting up top-ropes, or even let her follow you on climbs that are "escapable" if she can't follow. There is plenty of time to learn to lead and check and a time and age when it may be appropriate. Even that time may well depend on additional factors.
Finally, "falling" is not a part of "climbing". It is what you do when you aren't climbing. It is also when you are most likely to get hurt. "Falling" is the reason for using rope, harnesses, and protective gear.
Surely you know plenty of people who have broken bones falling on safe climbs. I know people who have broken bones, and had any number of soft tissue injuries falling on climbs, even in the gym on completely overhanging ground. If you are honest with yourself, you will realize why you were sweating her making the last clip, and why you were ready to lower after her fall.
Anybody know someone who fell and died on a safe climb?
I know of someone who fell and died on a 5.4. It was a short one-pitch climb with a G rating. IIRC, he was wearing a helmet.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 17, 2009 - 05:25pm PT
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TIG-- I'd relax a bit. Lots of 8 yr. olds pursue sport activities at least as dangerous as sport climbing.
Gymnastics, horseback riding, boarding, bicycling on city streets, etc., etc.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 17, 2009 - 05:39pm PT
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I think it's a good idea for helmets to be required for kids on bikes, in skate parks, etc. I think for lead climbing it's just as important.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 17, 2009 - 05:43pm PT
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yeah, what about helmets in gymnastics? ice skating? soccer?
my guess is that all of those are still a ways off.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Jun 17, 2009 - 05:43pm PT
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klk - got ya. There is another fallacy - one that most parents recognize when their kids say "Well Johnny does it".
That one has been used several times in this thread if you look for it. Tell me, at what minimum age is jumping on horses allowed. I am not real familiar with that sport.
Girls' gymnastics is really bad example. It has a terrible record of producing kids with eating disorders and other health problems. All of the parents are well-meaning here, of course.
BTW. The Olympics set minimum age levels to address this very problem.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Jun 17, 2009 - 05:54pm PT
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Damn right Cinch! How proud you must be!
Tradisbad: Go climbing you grumpy rusty c*nt bucket. How long does it take you to type those damn novels?
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Chris2
Trad climber
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Jun 17, 2009 - 06:09pm PT
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Excellent post...congrats to your daughter and yourself.
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Gene
climber
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Jun 17, 2009 - 06:22pm PT
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A word in support of TIG.
His motive is safety. His point is valid. Sh#t happens. Most of us disagree in this case cuz all came out fine. I'm glad he made me think about my kids, their ability, maturity, competence and all that good stuff. The downside should be measured against the upside & vice versa.
My opinion is that Kid and Mom/Dad can (and did) make the decision. Proud send for the young lady. But if TIG makes us think a little harder about putting the munchkin on the sharp end, props to him.
gm
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Jun 17, 2009 - 06:36pm PT
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Mostly right gene.
One other thing. Most of the time nobody will second guess you when things go right.
When things go wrong - everybody will pile on. Look at GM, Wall Street, AIG, Iraq.
See this site for climbing accident examples. Everybody becomes an instant-expert, even before they have found out the facts. Half the people don't even care to wait for or can even recognize the facts.
If our kid dies, or "worse" becomes permanently disabled, the press, and local district attorney may need to find a guilty party. The government may spare no tax-payer expense in this.
Anybody want to hazard a guess at how much a successful defense against child-endangerment charges costs in direct legal bills and other indirect costs?
Think about it.
Then do what you will!
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Stonedeaf
Social climber
misreading rock everywhere
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Jun 17, 2009 - 06:52pm PT
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The author wrote "Isn't falling part of climbing" Maybe I'm to old school ( i do have hexs on my rack) but I was taught The leader must not fall.
Rule 2 was don't push yourself with both gear and grade at once. A fall on a first lead, coupled with missing the clip 4-5 times suggests more gear experience.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Jun 17, 2009 - 06:52pm PT
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TIG has a valid point:
"If our kid dies, or "worse" becomes permanently disabled, the press, and local district attorney may need to find a guilty party. The government may spare no tax-payer expense in this."
Of course most of us - me included - think that society is pretty stupid to say that climbing rock is a "reckless" sport while climbing a tree is "something kids just do."
Dangerous? Sure. Life is dangerous. Reckless? Not as reckless as letting kids kick balls around in the street when the US driving tests let total idiots get a drivers license.
But society reacts in illogical ways, just as anytime a climber dies climbing (or a hiker falls off a cliff), newspaper articles headline the event and question climbing as a pursuit - but if someone dies in a car accident, no mention at all unless it causes a big traffic jam.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 17, 2009 - 06:55pm PT
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TradIsGood - good posts today. The explanations and neutrality are good.
I have lived the "survivor fallacy" myself. I used to think there was "something special" about my car, or where/when I parked it - bears did not break into it, although they broke into other cars. Later I confirmed I had just been lucky in the past, when a bear did break into my car.
Maybe I even have a "victim fallacy" - maybe my subjective estimate of the risk is higher than reality for my children climbing, because I have experienced climbing injuries and deaths of friends/family.
Witnessing my young son being struck by a car while on his bicycle just behind me - that was not a good feeling. But we still let him ride his bike. I feel kids should experience some level of risk so they gain an understanding - if they are mentally ready, and if failure is survivable at some very high probability.
We also have family adventures. Although the kids rarely rock climb and don't lead on rock, we have done some mountaineering where occasionally the consequences of a slip would be fatal. Usually we get out the rope for those situations, but not always, as sometimes anchors are inadequate. Maybe I suffered from "summit fever". When hiking the semi-via ferrata on Angel's Landing, I did tie my youngest son into a short rope 20' behind me. I knew I could hold him if he slipped and it helped me relax.
I think one of the challenges of parenting is "when do I treat my child differently than I treat myself?" I.e. what is "age appropriate". The simplest situation where this has come up is watching R-rated videos or movies. Some parents are more permissive about this than others. One of our kids complained a bit that we didn't allow them to watch R stuff at our house - they said it was not fair, etc. So I had to think carefully to explain why I thought it was age inappropriate. I said R was bad for them, because they might gain the impression that violent acts were normal behavior. (By implication, adults would hopefully be able to discount the illusions routinely offered by movies).
Whether leading a closely bolted 5.7 is "age appropriate" for an 8 year old, I'm not sure. No doubt Chinchen knows her better than I do, although parents can be subject to biases as well. I like Stonedeaf's observation that she was not ready in terms of the gear/clipping ability. I think we have to trust Chinchen's observation that she was a little rattled on lead, as he had trained her in clipping (maybe not with the rope weight for the highest bolt, though?).
My intended point in my original post was slightly different - I meant to say that there might be better/safer sports to encourage kids to participate in. I still think of climbing as mainly a fringe activity for the people that are too small/light for mainstream sports (myself included). I'm happy that our kids are more into running than climbing.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 17, 2009 - 08:56pm PT
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So on my first trip to Fontainebleau, I'm down at Elephant when a big school bus pulls up and about three dozen yelling kids of various ages, maybe 6-10, pour out of the bus and immediately begin swarming up everything on the children's circuit. No shoes, no chalk, no pof, no helmets, no ropes, a few teacher-chaperones (not climbers-- all three were women, dressed in their dresses and cardigans), and that's it.
I see variations on this theme everywhere I go in Europe.
Are Americans really too weak or cautious to allow that sort of thing? If the country is headed in that direction, then the last thing we ought to do is pander to it.
By all means, steer your own children away from climbing, if that's what you prefer.
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Choss Gee
Trad climber
Wyoming/Utah
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Jun 17, 2009 - 09:50pm PT
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It's probably alot safer than my dad putting me on a piped, bored, ported and polished CR80 and telling me he'll give me 50 bucks if i can top it out at the age of 8 haha.
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Jun 17, 2009 - 10:14pm PT
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TSG " His motive is safety"
Bullshiiit his motive to shove his ideas down others' throats.
He is the kind of person who thinks that everyone who drives slower than him is an idiot and everyone who drives faster than him is reckless.
I feel sorry for him.
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chez
Social climber
chicago ill
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Jun 17, 2009 - 10:58pm PT
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KLK,
Fountainbleu:
Thats a great little story. Responsability at its finest. If that were to happen on the eastside here in mammoth and a child was to fall on school time and get seriously hurt at the local bouldering area, the school would be finished. It's hard enough with the budget cuts just recently announced.
Then again if you saw the parents involved in the school you would realize that would never happen.
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apogee
climber
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Jun 17, 2009 - 11:14pm PT
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"There is another fallacy - one that most parents recognize when their kids say "Well Johnny does it"."
TiG, no matter how hard you try to explain why you believe that an 8 y/o shouldn't lead, Chinchen and many others are likely to feel differently. So back off, and let it go.
While I agree that 8 y/o is too young to be on the sharp end, I don't know this guy's kid, and more to the point, she isn't my daughter. The list of judgement calls a parent makes about what to allow their kid to do and when is a long, long list, and lead climbing, while pretty unique, is really not much different from any other choice this parent might make. The phenomenon of 'non-event feedback' seems to apply here- because nothing bad has ever happened to me, it won't happen in the future. Hopefully, that is far, far from the truth, that this young girl is remarkably skilled, her father has been very diligent in his supervision and judgement of her readiness, and the experience will become an important, guiding moment in her life. Since I don't know any of these people, and wasn't there, I choose to offer Chinchen the benefit of the doubt, and congratulate them on a great day.
Edit: By the way, Chinchen, having taught rock climbing to a lot of ~8 y/o's, a suggestion for future climbing (besides the need for a helmet). Young kids have a different center of gravity than adults do- they tend to be top heavy- which probably contributed to the somewhat inverted fall she took. Until she grows a bit more, you might consider either a full-body harness, or a chest harness along with her seat harness. Kind of cumbersome for leading, I know, but may help avert future inverted falls.
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Chinchen
climber
Living on the road
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2009 - 12:14am PT
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Thanks again, and Anika thanks the supporters also..
To be clear, my comment that I never hit my head was far from a statement that it would never happen. I thought that pointing out that I have experience in the real world of serious injury and death would explain that, but I see that I must be more clear. I was merely saying that the chances are minimal. I will say that for an inexperienced leader the chances are greater because the person may not know to jump over the rope, position themselves for the impact, etc... but that took me time to figure out also. But not before I was handed some harsh rope burn to the back of my legs.
As for the harness suggestion, She has a very well fitted harness and she is also very proportional, not to say that it wouldn't be a good idea, but I probably wont shell out the cash for that, maybe a webbing version would be sufficient.
I cant wait to post the next set of pics!
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jun 18, 2009 - 04:16am PT
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Haha look at this thread. And people bitch about political threads.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jun 18, 2009 - 05:39am PT
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hey there chichen... say, very nice pics and she seems to be doing a good job...
now, as for me... i am a bit agreeing with trad and clint..
but then, a bit agreeing with tami...
a bit agreeing with todd...
and a bit agreeing with you... :)
OH MY...
meaning--first off,helmet, yet...
folks don't understand what one head injury can do...
also, (tami knows about skates)...skates, many many parents are getting kids into ice skateing early.. for speed or figure skating..
also, it is a very common winter sport... my grandson learened early, for hockey.... but he wanted to, and pushed for it...
all such things are a risk--it is part of life:
BUT--- with rock climbing, i do think a child, even through being a child, should be informed of the risk (it is up to the parent how to do this, without making the child "scared to death"...
but then, you knowwwwwww, a fall, or an accident, also, can make one "scared to death" ,so also, a parent's warning and speaking the facts need not be feared as doing that, as to that one aspect...
with any thing, driving, trip, sports, horses, swimming, etc,
the main thing is go by your own "personal gut feeling" and follow through with as much safety as is in your hands to do so...
prayer sure is good too...
as for my kids:
all these years later, looking back, my kids could have fallen from a tree and died... yet, they climbed trees like monkeys, and all because we did, as kids... we knew if fell, we were in big pain-hurt-trouble... (i really don't think any of us knew we could die, or be paralyzed though... no one told us!)...
i thank god to this day that my kids climbed trees and were blessed to be safe... me, too, for that matter...
but a child, running and playing, can die from that, too, sadly... so all kids should be taught to just plain old be careful and ilimate the majority of and thus, face what is left, the best one can...
on thing that is true, too... once a parent knows their child and feels that they are "co-ordinated" enough, or mentally mature enough, etc.. or maybe just plain informed enough, or hungry for it, well, once past that, and with the sport, or climb, or dance, or whatever... the earlier they have training, the more it will be part of their nature, as they age...
very tricky stuff here... handled with care, and knowing what you may face, is all one can do...
...well...
last note...
my son took up suring when he was a young teen... it was his desicion, and at that point, and he was driving...
he taught himself and was very good, considering the texas gulf (haha)...
well, i had to set my face to accept the fact that he may die.... and he had to accept that, too...
and he near felt it happen once... he only quit when he was married and a daughter... she needs him... (she has a syndrom, too.. but he still feels a kid needs its father)...
course, he was older... but the point is:
no matter what a child does, the parent must be prepared in case that child does die or become crippled in some way, when a parent has decided to let a child do dangerous sports, otherwise, you will have a regret all your life...
then, love them dearly each and every day, and teach them to be wise in all they do...
well... thats it for me...
oh, wait.. one last thing..
my mom was scared all those years that mark climbed... and she really didn't want to even think about it...
but--she let him go, and she let him climb... but he was a pre-teen then... he just had to be him... and she kind of knew it, ven if she had to face hurt later, she knew it...
i thank god for all our good years... and for my kid's good years as well...
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 18, 2009 - 12:06pm PT
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"KLK,
Fountainbleu:
Thats a great little story. Responsability at its finest. If that were to happen on the eastside here in mammoth and a child was to fall on school time and get seriously hurt at the local bouldering area, the school would be finished. It's hard enough with the budget cuts just recently announced."
Actually, it's pretty healthy. American climbers on the forums are always whining about how Europe is all nanny states and communism, but let someone's kid climb without a helmet or a tourist slip on the cables route, and suddenly all the libertarianism vanishes and folks start edging toward serious suggestions for government regulation of the sport.
So far as Mammoth, I can easily believe that outdoor sports could be off the table for liability as well as financial reasons. So no field trips to the skate park, eh?
We could just get rid of all the playgrounds in the state-- swingsets, jungle gyms, hell, even tether ball can be dangerous. Then we could auction off the property and chip away at the debt.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Jun 18, 2009 - 12:12pm PT
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How did so many of us survive childhood without a helmet on everytime we played sports?
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Chinchen
climber
Living on the road
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2009 - 12:25pm PT
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Im off to Indian Creek to shotgun beers and dangle my kids from cliffs upside down so I wont be able to participate this week, enjoy the smear campaign. Ill be in Flagstaff next week if anyone wants to show me around the local crags that would be cool! (MisterE)
Peace!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 18, 2009 - 12:28pm PT
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Fishy, that's pretty awesome, nice pics!
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 18, 2009 - 01:29pm PT
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Put a helmet on the kid, make her a chest harness from a crossed runner or webbing, listen to other's input with an open mind, make the decision how much risk you feel is appropriate, determine if she is capable, and let her decide if she's ready.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Jun 18, 2009 - 01:39pm PT
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Nice Fish those are great pics man.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jun 18, 2009 - 01:40pm PT
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Its kind of silly to ask a kid to wear a helmet when the parents don't. I do a lot of ice climbing so a helmet is pretty natural to me. I just kind of forget to take it off in the spring. the new helmets are so light and they work better than the old ones so appart from the cost they shouldn't cramp your style too much and may save your butt...
For those of you who are teaching kids to climb maby its a thought to change your habbits? thats what parents have to do. I know friends who had to stop doing druggs when they found their kids running arround the house pretending to do lines..
It sounds like a pretty close call with all the troubble getting that last bolt clipped but all is well that ends well as long as you learn from it without getting hurt.
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apogee
climber
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Jun 18, 2009 - 01:49pm PT
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"Its kind of silly to ask a kid to wear a helmet when the parents don't."
I would agree to the extent that it is poor role modelling- it's much easier to get buy-in from your kid (or a client, or a student) when they see you do the same thing. From a physiologic standpoint, however, a child's skull is generally more vulnerable than a mature adults, and the brain is more easily affected/damage. From that standpoint, helmets generally make more sense for kids than they do for adults.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jun 18, 2009 - 01:54pm PT
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regardless of weather or not the adult thinks they need a helmet if you want to teach a kid to wear a helmet you have to wear one yourself. just like trying to keep your kids off drugs when you are a stoner. Chances are pretty good it's not going to work.
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froodish
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 18, 2009 - 01:54pm PT
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@apogee
> From a physiologic standpoint, however, a child's skull is generally
> more vulnerable than a mature adults, and the brain is more easily
> affected/damage. From that standpoint, helmets generally make more sense
> for kids than they do for adults.
The other major difference...
Presumably as an adult you're able to understand the potential consequences of not wearing a helmet and make an informed choice. The same cannot be said for an 8 year old.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 18, 2009 - 02:21pm PT
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Until my kid(s) is 18 he is doing what I say. I have many years of learning how to fall and learning how to not fall, he doesn't. He once asked me why he needed a helmet on a bike ride around the block while I don't. I said "I've ridden a bike for many years and I'm doing an easy ride with you. But you could crash and hit your head and be killed. If I was doing jumps or riding in traffic I would wear a helmet." He sees me wearing a helmet other times. I explain the reasons for things to my kid and he grasps them, they are smart.
Kids don't have the experience or judgement to know when they should wear a helmet, so they should wear it all the time when there is a danger of head trauma. Ice skating (especially hockey), skateboarding, horseback riding, etc. all have the potential for a hard blow to the head on a hard surface, my kids will wear a helmet for those. Soccer is dangerous but the injuries are broken bones, or a ball to the face, a helmet isn't needed IMO.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 18, 2009 - 02:29pm PT
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Fet-- You should take yr campaign to each and every playground and gymnasium in the u.s., then. Ever watch 9 yr olds on a swing set? Jungle gym? Walk into any good women's gymnastics programs and check out what the top 8-10yr olds are doing on the beam and the bars. Don't even think about the routines of the 12 yr olds-- you'd stroke out.
So far as soccer is concerned, the real danger is in fact head trauma. Weirdly enough, headers produce so much force that a series of studies have found serious and recurring head trauma among kids of all age groups who play well enough to head the ball.
I'm not working you because I think your points are necessarily incorrect (we generally agree that kids can't make the same judgments as adults), but to point out what we see as "helmet territory" is largely culturally conditioned and bears only a tenuous relation to real dangers.
Certain types of sport climbing and bouldering are probably at least as safe than any of the activities I've just instanced where virtually no one uses a helmet or would think to. Yet mention the word "climbing," and folks are getting ready to call CPS.
From a rational point of view, if your objective is to limit head injuries in children, then kids should have the helmets strapped on round the clock. Or we could just duct tape them to the sofa.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jun 18, 2009 - 02:50pm PT
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I am still a kid at heart and I think I know a bit about how kids think. Deep down you want to be like dad. You can force your kid to do something when you are there but if you want to have them actually do it when you are not arround then you have to make it something that they want to do VS something they have been told to do. You all can do whatever you want. no skin off my back just pointing out that telling kids to do something and haveing them actually do it are entirely different things... I personaly don't know any stoner parents without stoner kids and I seriously doubt that there are many kids out there who wear helmets climbing unsupervised who's parents did not wear helmets. All well and good if you don't care if your kid ends up wearing a helmet or not. Bike helmet is fine with me BTW or no helmet or whatever. The car seat thing is an effin stupid analogy. kids grow out of car seats. Climbing may be a life long endevor so you may be trying to give your kid good habbits to carry with them down that road..... or not ;)
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apogee
climber
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Jun 18, 2009 - 03:06pm PT
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Don't misread my last post- I am a huge advocate for helmets for adults or kids, especially when conditions (or experience/skill) dictates it. There is a difference, though, between the behavioral tactics that are effective in getting someone to wear a helmet (i.e. role modelling) vs. the physiologic differences b/w an adult & a child. While trauma to anyone's skull can result in injury, a child's skull/brain is somewhat more vulnerable.
I often wonder just how many anti-helmet people have ever personally known anyone who has sustained a brain injury (esp. before & after their incident), or have spent time with brain injured people in any kind of treatment facility. It would be interesting to see how their opinions changed after spending some time with those who have had their lives change due to brain injury.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 18, 2009 - 03:13pm PT
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apogee-- i'm not anti-helment. If someone wants to wear a helmet, they should. If someone want their kids to wear helmets, then they should have them wear helmets. If spomeone wants me or my kids to wear helmets, then they should politely mention it, once, in a low-key way, and then STFU.
yes, i worked in adaptive p.e. for about a year or so with at least two folks who had suffered motor damage as a result of head trauma. (motorcycle accidents.)
and yes, i've had several friends either die or suffer long-term problems from head injuries. (playground, horseback riding, climbing, and football over and over.)
lots of dangerous stuff in the world.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Jun 18, 2009 - 03:14pm PT
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Where is Ouch! when we really need him.
By now we would have had pictures of a kid leading trad in diapers.
Anybody have a kid who has lead sport before he could even walk?
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 18, 2009 - 04:42pm PT
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You have to look at the specific activity's likelihood and consequences of a head injury. Lead climbing = a real chance of a forcefull blow to the head and against a friggin' rock. if that's not a situation that calls for a helmet, what is?
Rock climbing is too small a sport to be regulated (thank goodness), but the govt. and society does have a responsibility to enforce safety measures for children who can't make their own decisions in some circumstances IMO. Some people aren't capable of making good decisions for their children, e.g. a parent that denies medical treatment for their kids for BS reasons. There's a big grey area about what shold be allowed or what should be regulated, but saftey gear for certain situations is pretty cut and dry to me as an example of still allowing people to engage in activites they want, while taking reasonable precautions for kids who can't make their own informed decisions. Bike Helmets are required in Cali for minors. As much as I dislike govt. intervention in how I raise my kids I support this law. Many irresponsible parents would otherwise not buy or make their kids wear helmets, despite the evidence and lives saved. I'm pragmatic and my ideolgy of limited govt. regulation takes a backseat to saving kids lives or preventing serious injuries. Life Jackets are also now required in CA state parks when kids are near water. Again I'm in support of this, it saves kids lives, and the kid's right to reasonable safety measures outweighs a parent's right to raise their children without any regulation.
As a parent it also makes it easier to say to my kid "sorry you have to wear a life jacket, seatelt, helmet, etc. it's the law." Rather than try to explain to him why it's a good idea (which I do as well, but he can't argue with the law).
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 18, 2009 - 04:45pm PT
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Hey Fet:
So you'd favor laws that mandate helmets for rock-climbing, gymnastics, horseback riding, and what else? Not needling you, genuinely curious.
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 18, 2009 - 04:56pm PT
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klk, you are making unreasonable assumptions.
To prove it:
Here's a photo of my son leading with no helmet!
I got some comments about him not having a helmet when this was first posted. First of all the photo is exaggerrated for effect/fun. It's 3rd class. There wasn't any real potential for a fall that would result in a head blow. However if it was a 5th class lead (which I possibly would let him do) he would absof*#kinlutely have a helmet.
I could spin your statements into unreasonable assumptions too. You'd favor giving kids loaded guns with no training, letting them drive cars, BASE jump, what else?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 18, 2009 - 05:08pm PT
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Well, that was helpful-- so you don't support helmet laws for kids in climbing? That seemed to be the logical thrust of yr earlier posts. And I'm not saying that it's a ridiculous proposition. I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen in some not very distant future.
In fact, given the large number of climbers now comfortable with "belay test" and "leader certification" as part of their intro to the sport, I could easily imagine mandatory licensing for all lead climbers in National Parks or something equally grim, if there were money enough for the enforcing bodies to police it.
But yeah, I was surprised at the level of criticism Chinchen and Dingus's pix generated.
Guns? I learned to shoot at maybe age four or so.
Auto licenses are a different matter, largely because driving has been legally defined as a "privilege." I started driving when I was 13 because we were haying and needed someone to drive the truck. No, they didn't have me wear a helmet. Although maybe they should've worn them-- almost tossed my uncle off the bed a couple times before I got the hang of using a clutch, hehe.
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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Jun 18, 2009 - 05:20pm PT
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Have fun out there, Jason - I am in LA with my woman now.
Shoot me a message and I'll give you Pennsylenvy's contact info.
The Doctor is on vacation in Utah, or I'd hook you up with him.
Erik
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 18, 2009 - 05:56pm PT
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No I don't support a law for kid's climbing helmets, I hope climbing stays under the radar and unregulated. It probably will because because not many people climb.
I do support seat belt laws, car seats, education, etc. requirements for kids.
For private vs. public requirements:
In the climbing gym I'm ok with requiring helmets for kids. For soccer teams I'm ok with requiring shin guards.
I was in a ski jumping competition this year that required helmets. Some of the competitors didn't bring helmets (reading comprehension - a good indicator of seriousness) and were pissed they couldn't jump without them. I was thinking if your going to jump 100 feet and don't want to wear a helmet you really don't understand the risk involved. One of the dudes borrowed a helmet, jumped, and almost crashed...
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