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Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 26, 2010 - 12:22pm PT
It says very little that there is one, maybe two, people who post here that
are admittedly from the right that can put forth a somewhat credible position

On the other hand, every single one here posting from the left has their facts
straight and constantly presents well supported positions.


In fact, a very large number of the posts here are from the left who have to
waste their time correcting the facts that the right bases their positions on

People on the political right form their opinions on how they "feel",
and consider facts that flatly prove them wrong to be "irrelevant"


So, this proves they are, by and large, dumbfuks.

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Mar 26, 2010 - 12:26pm PT
Fatty wrote: Cantor is brilliant, a moderate and yes I've spent a good deal of time with him. Most recently last October at the One Market restaurant in San Francisco.

Stalking him doesn't mean you spend a fair amount of time with him.

I think he likes the Britany Spears type anyway.

Also..I'll be in SF around the 18 of April for a week. Lets go for coffee and then you can tell people you spend time with Bob D!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 26, 2010 - 12:28pm PT
You want further proof just exactly how fuking STUPID Republicans are?

This recent poll question on registered Republicans:

• "Do you believe Barack Obama was born in the United States, or not?" Yes 42%, No 36%, Not Sure 22%.


Think about this, fully 58% of Rebubs cannot say that Obama is a US Citizen



Does everyone realize what we are dealing with here?



These people are BIRTHERS!





fully 58% of Rebubs cannot say that Obama is a US Citizen
fully 58% of Rebubs cannot say that Obama is a US Citizen
fully 58% of Rebubs cannot say that Obama is a US Citizen



Binks

Social climber
Mar 26, 2010 - 12:39pm PT
People on the political right form their opinions on how they "feel",
and consider facts that flatly prove them wrong to be "irrelevant"


So, this proves they are, by and large, dumbfuks.

Actually, if this was true it wouldn't be a problem. It would in fact be a positive evolutionary step for them. But the real truth is that they base their opinions on what pundits told them, not on what they feel. The right wing subscribes to a GroupThink model. That's why they follow pundits whether it be Limbaugh, Beck or Coulter or what have you. Or they base their opinions on what some religious person in some questionable hierarchy said.

Right wingers are by nature hierarchical, they surrender to people barking at them from pulpits, whether media, corporate or religious. It's very hard to them for imagine someone not fitting a black and white category. Voting in lockstep. Difference of opinion is treachery. "You're with us, or with the terrorists".

It's not hypocrisy that bothers them, it's non-allegiance. Hypocrisy is absolutely necessary -for the very reason that they can't own how they really feel. Repression. So it breaks out in some big way. Outwardly championing moral values (allegiance), meanwhile living a life of moral debauchery.
dirtbag

climber
Mar 26, 2010 - 12:50pm PT
I don't suppose those of you bitching about Palin were stupid enough to have voted John Edwards for VP, were you?

Yep, I bitched about Palin and I voted for Edwards. My hunch at the time was that Edwards was an intelligent guy but rather ratlike--but it was just a hunch which was later of course confirmed.

Palin was pretty obviously "illiterate" (Fatty's words) from the get go.

Your point Chaz?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 26, 2010 - 12:50pm PT
"Remember Dan Quayle?"


I didn't vote for him either.

The absolute worst of the bunch is still Edwards. You didn't vote for that ticket, did you?
dirtbag

climber
Mar 26, 2010 - 12:51pm PT
Mar 26, 2010 - 09:28am PT
You want further proof just exactly how fuking STUPID Republicans are?

This recent poll question on registered Republicans:

• "Do you believe Barack Obama was born in the United States, or not?" Yes 42%, No 36%, Not Sure 22%.


Think about this, fully 58% of Rebubs cannot say that Obama is a US Citizen

That 58% number would be much smaller if he was white and "Obama" was spelled "O'bama."
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 26, 2010 - 12:58pm PT
I'll bet if the poll question were phrased "Would you like to see Obama's ass sent back to Indonesia?", you'd see more than a 58% positive result - among all voters, not just Republicans.
apogee

climber
Mar 26, 2010 - 01:05pm PT
"But the real truth is that they base their opinions on what pundits told them..."

OK, just to play devil's advocate on this one (not trying to steal your fire, Norton), and because I'm a little bit bored this morning...

Don't you think that Libs/Dems can be rightfully accused of the exact same thing? 'GroupThink' is not a phenomenon unique to conservatives- it is a simple human behavior reality. Arguing that this is an identifying characteristic of Repubs is just plain untrue, and pretty clearly coveys the real intent, which is to make a derogatory statement about someone. That kind of rhetoric keeps people in their defensive bunkers and doesn't do anything to stimulate productive discussions.

I can understand the need to rant occasionally, esp. when something unusually egregious pops up (that really is unique to conservatism) that really pisses you off. But when the 'message' is constantly 'they're stooopid, they're stooooopid', one shouldn't be surprised that only the most patient of Repubs (i.e. John E) stick around.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Mar 26, 2010 - 01:07pm PT
Chaz wrote: I'll bet if the poll question were phrased "Would you like to see Obama's ass sent back to Indonesia?", you'd see more than a 58% positive result - among all voters, not just Republicans.

What a stupid ass thing to say.


"Obama’s approval rating is roughly equal to what Bill Clinton had at this point in his presidency, according to data maintained by Gallup. It’s higher than the 45 percent Ronald Reagan recorded in April 1982.

Obama, 48, still enjoys an 85 percent job-approval rating among Democrats, compared with 46 percent among independent voters and 11 percent among Republicans."


Two wars, major recession, birthers, called a socialist, Facist and he still has a better approval rating than Ronald Reagan and he has also passed more major legislation than Ronald Reagan and the Bush's one and two in their first term.
dirtbag

climber
Mar 26, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
Don't you think that Libs/Dems can be rightfully accused of the exact same thing? 'GroupThink' is not a phenomenon unique to conservatives- it is a simple human behavior reality. Arguing that this is an identifying characteristic of Repubs is just plain untrue, and pretty clearly coveys the real intent, which is to make a derogatory statement about someone. That kind of rhetoric keeps people in their defensive bunkers and doesn't do anything to stimulate productive discussions.


I don't know.

What do you think?
apogee

climber
Mar 26, 2010 - 01:27pm PT
"Don't you think that Libs/Dems can be rightfully accused of the exact same thing?"

Aawwww, shite...now I'm quoting myself. I must be reaaaalllly bored.

Yes, I do think Libs/Dems can be accused of 'GroupThink'. I do believe that there are several Lib ST polititards that give good, solid rational thinking to their positions and statements, but I'm also aware of just about as many who regurgitate soundbites in the same way Repugs do. Personally, I make a strong effort to closely consider the source of the information that I come across, and I'm aware that I have biases based on the sources I choose, and my own experience in life.

I'm not so sure that is common amongst all Libs, Dems, Repubs, Conservatives, Libertarians, whatevvah. I notice a similar pattern of GroupThink amongst all sides, simply because of ignorance (not in the condescending sense of the word) and oftentimes because of intellectual laziness: it takes effort to figure out where information comes from, and the underlying, historic aspects of an issue.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Mar 26, 2010 - 02:03pm PT
Bookworm: I realize the world is a big scary place that you mostly don't understand but bills are changed right up until they are voted on. Then they are often changed again in reconciliation as this one was. The AP read all the bills and reported on them for months, but nobody has actually read the "final" bill until all the changes are passed because they keep changing. Unless you are part of the process of changing them it is pretty hard to keep up with it all.


Ricky: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pilG7PCV448&feature=player_embedded#
There's your tea party circus. These people are hilarious and yeah the kid did a really great job of staying impartial and allowing people to reveal themselves.


Apogee: Groupthink is always a huge problem. What the partisans here seem to miss is that most of the liberals were highly critical of the health care bill in a variety of ways that were actually based in fact. If people wanted to start having fact-based discussions about health care we would probably find a lot more common ground, but when your main argument is that "Obama is a socialist mole sent to destroy America from within" well the results speak for themselves.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Mar 26, 2010 - 02:36pm PT
Jeff and same to you.
apogee

climber
Mar 26, 2010 - 02:52pm PT
"What the partisans here seem to miss..."

What really pisses me off about the GroupThink that the Right has displayed during the healthcare debate is that there has been virtually no willingness to sit down and discuss the issue based on facts. Very few even attempt to try...the few that do, i.e. fattrad, have a set of 'facts' that are probably easily discreditted, but at least he makes an effort to present a rational view of his position.

For the most part, though, it has been a bunch of teabagging droids who can't present any real facts or sources for their positions- when pressed to do so, they have absolutely no response whatsoever. (Ex: yesterday I pressed bluering to explain his quote that 'the HR bill moved healthcare into the workings of gov't.' I posted this query 4 times...no response.)

Instead, they revert to anger, negativity, partisan regurgitations of soundbites, whipped up into a froth by FauxNews media sources, and the GOP 'leadership'. The very few rational conservatives know very well that their party is out of control, and make no effort to speak up to it- if they are in positions of leadership, they know their heads will be lost (i.e. David Frum). Amongst those rational conservatives who aren't in positions of leadership, they sit quietly by and let it all go, discreditting themselves by not acting on the obvious.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
Mar 26, 2010 - 02:58pm PT
"What really pisses me off about the GroupThink that the Right has displayed during the healthcare debate is that there has been virtually no willingness to sit down and discuss the issue based on facts."


That wasn't even groupthink, which is inherently a trap that is fallen into by accident. That was (is) their planned strategy. They said "screw the facts, let's convince everyone that this means socialism, the demise of America and that old people will be ground up for mulch." It's not even just their healthcare strategy it's their entire political strategy.
Binks

Social climber
Mar 26, 2010 - 03:11pm PT
Don't you think that Libs/Dems can be rightfully accused of the exact same thing? 'GroupThink' is not a phenomenon unique to conservatives- it is a simple human behavior reality. Arguing that this is an identifying characteristic of Repubs is just plain untrue, and pretty clearly coveys the real intent, which is to make a derogatory statement about someone. That kind of rhetoric keeps people in their defensive bunkers and doesn't do anything to stimulate productive discussions.

GroupThink can happen to anyone, sure. But on the right wing it is true to a larger extent. People subscribing to that stuff live on fantasy island to the rest of us. Air America went bankrupt (as well it should). No listeners. Not because a lot of people didn't share the values, it's just the mindset fosters more independence. No need to listen to someone else to figure out what you think and what the latest attack dog word is going to be. There is no left wing equivalent of Limbaugh and his group of dittoheads. Or Glenn Beck. There is no tax free church of "progressive" idealism. No one would attend if there was. So what I've seen on these threads is a desparate attempt to pin labels on people that don't actually belong to any identifiable cohort. Dig up obscure documents about some weired philosophical school and pretend it's a "secret agenda". It's a huge problem when the people you are attacking don't even know what you're talking about. My secret agenda? I'm hiding it but YOU (or is it some pundit) knows what it is? News to me!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Mar 26, 2010 - 03:16pm PT
No, I respectfully disagree.
Republicans ARE "stupid"


And by the way, we just took a "poll" a little over a year ago.
And the American people picked Barrack Obama over a well known "celebrity"
who had been a US Senator for 26 years, John DipSh#t McCain and Caribou Barbie.


Again, a very large amount of the time spent posting here by people on the
left is "correcting" forum conservatives on their "facts"


Bottom line, people on the left FIRST get their facts right from credible
sources and THEN make up their opinions.

People on the right FIRST decide how they "feel", then ignore the credible
facts that directly contradict their opinions.


BIG DIFFERENCE.
Jingy

Social climber
Nowhere
Mar 26, 2010 - 03:18pm PT
republican shoould defect from that party....


the party does nothing to make America any better...

they are only interested in pulling us back into the dark ages...


do a study of the laws that were enacted during the bush years... you will see how business got everything.. and the people of America got the shaft.
Binks

Social climber
Mar 26, 2010 - 03:21pm PT
Facts don't matter 1/10th as much as independence of spirit and thought , i.e. the opposite of GroupThink.

I can believe in Helios, it shouldn't threaten you that you can prove there is no chariot crossing the heavens but I refuse to believe your "facts".

The problems facing the modern world is that scientific, factual thinking only really works well in small controlled environments but people try to extrapolate it out to complex systems. It doesn't work. No computer ever made or ever will be made that can do it sufficiently well, let alone finite groups of humans. You can't prove anything meaningful about climate change for instance with "facts". We should act, but that isn't a fact so much as an intuition. If we want people to act on global warming, we should't scream at them that they don't listen to facts. This itself is a lie! We should appeal to their intuition, their resonance with symbolism. Otherwise people will continue to gravitate to those that can appeal to them on more authentic level. They will keep looking for the rapture.

Religious thinking is just as intrusive when leveraged by group. You can say God said we should do this and that, but Occam proved removing God does not seem to change reality one bit. God is an extraneous hypothesis. Not wrong, just unnecessary. (And actually, I'm a believer saying this).

In the real world, people navigate by countless maps of reality and they get along fine. A Catholic sees a demon and psychologist sees a disorder. One gets cured by an exorcist and the other by a counselor. When some group says "ours is the only map", that's a form of insanity. I include scientists in this form of delusion. The scientists biggest delusions are formed by overreaching.

I've been accused of being a moral relativist, but it's untrue. My morals are absolute within my own system.
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