Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2010 - 03:28pm PT
|
You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.
Facts belong to everyone, they are the only known "truth".
Opinions are like as#@&%es, everyone has one.
|
|
scarcollector
climber
CO
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2010 - 03:35pm PT
|
Both parties have blown all the political capital and credibility they ever had. That's (partly) why its easier to attack political positions than defend.
"We have met the enemy, and they is us." - Pogo
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2010 - 03:53pm PT
|
Senate Republicans REFUSE to "work" after 2PM: CHICENSH#T PUSSIES
FURTHER PROOF of how STUPID 13th century "conservatives" really are:
Senate Republicans fuming over the passage of health care reform are now refusing to work past 2 p.m. -- a tactic they can employ by invoking a little-known Senate rule.
On Wednesday, the Judiciary Committee was forced to cancel a hearing as was the Senate Armed Services Committee.
Sen. Claire McCaskill (D-Mo.) tweeted today : "Disappointed. Rs refusing to allow hearings today. Had to cancel my oversight hearing on police training contracts in Afghanistan."
Sen. Mark Udall also complained that he had to delay a hearing on the cause of Western forest fires.
Making good on Sen. John McCain's threat to withhold all Republican cooperation from Democrats in the Senate in retribution for the majority party using reconciliation to pass health care reform, the GOP used the rule that states committees can only meet when the chamber is in session with the unanimous consent of all members. That consent has almost never been withheld -- until now.
Armed Services Chairman Carl Levin (D-Mich.) asked for consent for his panel to operate Wednesday afternoon. He noted, ironically, that his request had the support of McCain.
hp
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2010 - 03:53pm PT
|
"GroupThink can happen to anyone, sure. But on the right wing it is true to a larger extent."
I don't know how it could ever be conclusively proven that that is true, so all we will likely have is our own subjective view of which ideology is more prone to GroupThink. I don't think there's any arguing that the HR 'debate' (if you could call it that) was a very good example of the Right using GroupThink to their political advantage. It also seems clear that when one person accuses another of falling prey to it, it's gonna be interpreted as a hostile criticism, with the net result of defensive bunker mentality and end of productive discussion.
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2010 - 04:00pm PT
|
The republican base has a much, much more homogeneous ideology and they are currently in the throws of ousting "unpure" elected members with a variety of litmus tests. I think that makes it pretty easy to say that makes them more vulnerable to "groupthink." When was the last time a liberal think tank members was fired because he publicly criticized the Democrats for their horrible strategy? I'm far from saying that Dems are immune, but they actually value diverse opinion. The battles within the party are typically how to reconcile those opinions. Just look at the health care vote. There are Democrats that voted AGAINST it, and I don't see anyone prominently hollering for their blood. The bill had to be modified heavily to even get the conservative Democrats to vote for it.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2010 - 04:13pm PT
|
Senate Republicans REFUSE to "work" after 2PM: CHICENSH#T PUSSIES
FURTHER PROOF of how STUPID 13th century "conservatives" really are:
Senate Republicans fuming over the passage of health care reform are now refusing to work past 2 p.m. -- a tactic they can employ by invoking a little-known Senate rule.
On Wednesday, the Judiciary Committee was forced to cancel a hearing as was the Senate Armed Services Committee.
Sen. Claire McCaskill (D-Mo.) tweeted today : "Disappointed. Rs refusing to allow hearings today. Had to cancel my oversight hearing on police training contracts in Afghanistan."
Sen. Mark Udall also complained that he had to delay a hearing on the cause of Western forest fires.
Making good on Sen. John McCain's threat to withhold all Republican cooperation from Democrats in the Senate in retribution for the majority party using reconciliation to pass health care reform, the GOP used the rule that states committees can only meet when the chamber is in session with the unanimous consent of all members. That consent has almost never been withheld -- until now.
Armed Services Chairman Carl Levin (D-Mich.) asked for consent for his panel to operate Wednesday afternoon. He noted, ironically, that his request had the support of McCain.
hp
This is exactly why the filibuster needs to be eliminated. When the minority party acts like a bunch of dicks and is not interested in working on anything, i.e., actually governing, then the Fil is a tool for mere obstructionism and NOT another check and balance tool to prevent excesses.
I'm glad folks are finally paying attention to this.
|
|
Binks
Social climber
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2010 - 04:27pm PT
|
GroupThink "Prominent Conservative Fired for Health Care dissent"
http://bit.ly/bJNCMe
"Rigid conformity is being enforced, no dissent is allowed, and the conservative brain will slowly shrivel into dementia if it hasn’t already. … The donor community is only interested in financing organizations that parrot the party line.”
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2010 - 06:12pm PT
|
Nice leather jacket, Sarah. Did the McCain campaign take you on another shopping trip?
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2010 - 08:08pm PT
|
There goes McCain making Palin wear clothes that she doesn't want to. They just aren't folksy.
|
|
Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2010 - 09:28pm PT
|
Where are the "Whips and Chains"?
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2010 - 09:30pm PT
|
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2010 - 10:01pm PT
|
To: Mitch McConnell
From; Harry Reid
Dear Leader McConnell:
Eleven months ago, I wrote you to share my expectations for the coming health reform debate. At the time, I expressed Democrats' intention to work in good faith with Republicans, and my desire that - while we would disagree at times - we could engage in an honest discussion grounded in facts rather than fear, and focused on producing results, not playing partisan politics.
Obviously, the opposite has happened, as many Republicans have spent the past year mischaracterizing the health reform bill and misleading the public. Though we have tried to engage in a serious discussion, our efforts have been met by repeatedly debunked myths and outright lies. At the same time, Republicans have resorted to extraordinary legislative maneuvers in an effort not to improve the bill, but to delay and kill it. After watching these tactics for nearly a year, there is only one conclusion an objective observer could make: these Republican maneuvers are rooted less in substantive policy concerns and more in a partisan desire to discredit Democrats, bolster Republicans, and protect the status quo on behalf of the insurance industry.
In fact, the attacks on the health care bill are part of a broader pattern. As has been well documented, your caucus conspicuously shattered the record for obstruction last Congress by demanding gratuitous procedural votes on even the most non-controversial matters, and by stalling the work of the Senate despite the urgency of the serious problems facing our country. Senate Republicans are on pace to again break their own record this Congress, illustrated by Sen. Bunning's effort to prevent the Senate from acting to extend families' unemployment and health benefits even after those benefits had expired.
While Republicans were distorting the facts in the health care debate and inflicting delay after needless delay, millions of Americans have continued to suffer as they struggle to afford to stay healthy, stay out of bankruptcy and stay in their homes. Thousands of Americans lose their health care every day, and tens of thousands of the uninsured have lost their lives since this debate began. Meanwhile, rising health costs have contributed to a rising federal budget deficit.
To address these problems, 60 Senators voted to pass historic reform that will make health insurance more affordable, make health insurance companies more accountable and reduce our deficit by roughly a trillion dollars. The House passed a similar bill. However, many Republicans now are demanding that we simply ignore the progress we've made, the extensive debate and negotiations we've held, the amendments we've added (including more than 100 from Republicans) and the votes of a supermajority in favor of a bill whose contents the American people unambiguously support. We will not. We will finish the job. We will do so by revising individual elements of the bills both Houses of Congress passed last year, and we plan to use the regular budget reconciliation process that the Republican caucus has used many times.
I know that many Republicans have expressed concerns with our use of the existing Senate rules, but their argument is unjustified. There is nothing unusual or extraordinary about the use of reconciliation. As one of the most senior Senators in your caucus, Sen. Judd Gregg of New Hampshire, said in explaining the use of this very same option, "Is there something wrong with majority rules? I don't think so." Similarly, as non-partisan congressional scholars Thomas Mann and Norm Ornstein said in this Sunday's New York Times, our proposal is "compatible with the law, Senate rules and the framers' intent."
Reconciliation is designed to deal with budget-related matters, and some have expressed doubt that it could be used for comprehensive health care reform that includes many policies with no budget implications. But the reconciliation bill now under consideration would not be the vehicle for comprehensive reform - that bill already passed outside of reconciliation with 60 votes. Instead, reconciliation would be used to make a modest number of changes to the original legislation, all of which would be budget-related. There is nothing inappropriate about this. Reconciliation has been used many times for a variety of health-related matters, including the establishment of the Children's Health Insurance Program and COBRA benefits, and many changes to Medicare and Medicaid.
As you know, the vast majority of bills developed through reconciliation were passed by Republican Congresses and signed into law by Republican Presidents - including President Bush's massive, budget-busting tax breaks for multi-millionaires. Given this history, one might conclude that Republicans believe a majority vote is sufficient to increase the deficit and benefit the super-rich, but not to reduce the deficit and benefit the middle class. Alternatively, perhaps Republicans believe a majority vote is appropriate only when Republicans are in the majority. Either way, we disagree.
Keep in mind that reconciliation will not exclude Republicans from the legislative process. You will continue to have an opportunity to offer amendments and change the shape of the legislation. In addition, at the end of the process, the bill can pass only if it wins a democratic, up-or-down majority vote. If Republicans want to vote against a bill that reduces health care costs, fills the prescription drug "donut hole" for seniors and reduces the deficit, you will have every right to do so.
Sincerely,
HARRY REID
United States Senator
Nevada
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2010 - 10:33pm PT
|
Wow. Harry just scored some points in my book. I have little love for either of the majority leaders but they seem to be more competent than I have been giving them credit, even if they are horribly uncharismatic and annoying.
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2010 - 10:46pm PT
|
By TIMOTHY P. CAHILL
White House Senior Adviser David Axelrod hailed the Massachusetts health-care program as "the template" for the national health-care reform legislation the president signed into law earlier this week. That should be cause for serious concern about this law's ability to improve our health-care system at an affordable cost.
As state treasurer, I can speak with authority about the Massachusetts pilot program. It has been a fiscal train wreck.
The universal insurance coverage we adopted in 2006 was projected to cost taxpayers $88 million a year. However, since this program was adopted in 2006, our health-care costs have in total exceeded $4 billion. The cost of Massachusetts' plan has blown a hole in the Commonwealth's budget. Just last Thursday, Gov. Deval Patrick's office announced a $294 million shortfall related to health-care costs.
If not for federal Medicaid reimbursements and commitments from Washington to prop up this plan, Massachusetts would be broke. The only reason MassCare has survived is that we have been repeatedly bailed out by the federal government. But that raises the question: Who will bail America out if we implement a similar program?
While everyone should have access to affordable health care, our experience in Massachusetts tells us that the new federal entitlement will burden future taxpayers with unfunded liabilities they cannot afford. Health-care inflation will continue. Mandates will increase insurance premiums. And the deficit will reach frightening levels as the law's costs greatly exceed the projections of its advocates.
As lawmakers push for changes in the bill, they should start by being honest about its costs and focus on making health care more affordable without bankrupting the country.
Mr. Cahill is the state treasurer of Massachusetts. He is currently running as an independent for governor.
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2010 - 10:52pm PT
|
TGT- Yes that's to be expected because it's still very new and we have yet to address the reimbursement aspect of health care, just coverage. Now that we are in whole hog on coverage we have no choice but to address the costs. I assure you that Obama and his crew are under no illusions about this.
|
|
rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
|
|
|
Mar 27, 2010 - 01:28am PT
|
There is so much negativity and hate from the neo-cons on this thread that i will probably not post any more on the why republicans are so wrong thread but first a message for fox news , rush , and glen beck....eat flaming death , fascist media pigs...rj
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
|
|
Mar 27, 2010 - 03:57am PT
|
To be accurate Fatty is the only real "neocon" here. The rest are mostly full on Teabaggers or fairly close.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!