Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 06:25pm PT
|
Wescrist,wescrist, wescrist...when taken out of context you can turn any words into what you want it to say. By asking to not share anothers testimony I thought I was making it clear that I had more to say to make a point. The floor is yours, all yours. I'll step out of the way now.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 06:40pm PT
|
Ed wrote: "so Jennie, what of the other minorities disenfranchised by the majority beliefs? certainly the Mormons aren't the only group to so suffer..."
In my experience, the curse of the "majority belief" is often that people in a given culture will consider the topic only in terms of the majority belief - God is this or that - and then, based on their own cognitive training or experiences, declare judgement on said belief being either totally correct or totally wrong - the case being closed for them ever after.
Here, in this Judeo Christian culture, we see the standard creator God, as described in the Saint James Bible, is often the only one considered relevant. Anything outside of that box is "ga ga mysticism."
What's more - and this is key - once a negative judgement is decided in a person's mind per "God," that judgement is as fixed as a knifeblade with a sledge hammer, and you will never see any tangible effort to uproot or challenge the fixed negative save the mental patterning that contrived the negative in the first instance. Such people do not actually have a "position," rather the fixated decision owns them. They cannot budge away from it - and here you look at the behavior, not the justifications and rationalizations for staying stuck.
As I've said, this is more of a psychological condition than a spiritual matter, having to do with the mind's inability to work with paradox. The first step to any spiritual path is giving up the idea that you are going to think your way to knowledge. It's really a matter of what you do.
In terms of spiritual matters, at least at the beginning, it does NOT matter what you think or what you feel, but it matters what you do. Once you do better, you will think and feel better. Put differently, once you stop trying to think your way there, more will be revealed. It is conterintuitive.
JL
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 06:57pm PT
|
Largo nails it again ......
|
|
aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 07:09pm PT
|
The great mystic Sri Ramakrishna said that "communion with the Atman is 10 million times better and more enjoyable than sex."
Another Indian mystic, Ammachi said:
"The happiness that we gain from the outer world is fleeting; it never stays with you for long. It is there for one moment and the next moment it is gone. But, spiritual bliss is not like that. Once the final breakthrough happens, that is, once you transcend the limitations of body, mind and intellect, once you reach that state, there is no return. The bliss is forever. And it is infinite."
Yet another one, Paramahansa Yogananda says:
"Meditation means transferring your attention from the bundle of sensations that is your body to the Infinite Joy that is your true Self."
Also, he said, "Oh, such joy! I don't feel any sensations making any permanent impression in me. The ordinary man walks, sleeps, works, earns. I find I am settled in Bliss. I am awake in Bliss, ever watching the states of the body and mind when they are awake or asleep or dreaming. Last night I ate, and when I finished I didn't know I had eaten. All I knew was Bliss Eternal and Light ever spreading."
So, it sounds like they are having fun with something, whether one believes in God or not.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 07:35pm PT
|
To distinguish the spiritual from the material is fine. -As long as it's understood the spiritual is obedient to the material.
A traditional view is that life works through matter but is independent of it. This is incorrect.
No brain, no mind. No body, no spirit. Pretty simple relationships. Hard for traditional theists who have spent a lifetime buying into the Abrahamic narrative (aka the bible stories) to grasp however, double hard for those with no science education.
EDIT 4:41p Oh, Brawny, the woo woo speculator... I knew you'd chime in. When will you adapt. Read some life science textbooks. Adapt. Upgade your software. Get with it.
That we are material beings in addition to spiritual beings isn't the end of the world, it only means we don't get to live forever.
P.S. My carnate spirit is feeling better today, it's been a little under the weather, think it picked up a bug on the climbing holds in the gym a few days ago. How's your spirit? Flying high? Want to climb tomorrow?
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 07:40pm PT
|
A traditional view is that life works through matter but is independent of it. This is incorrect.
No, that's correct.
|
|
426
climber
Buzzard Point, TN
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 07:46pm PT
|
Most of the atheists that I know do not get upset or concerned about the beliefs of others, just the idiotic actions because of those beliefs.
-Dave
That's an interesting point, I'm kind of a Joseph Campbell fanboi myself (Power of Myth). Allegorically speaking.
What really fascinates me about the march of science is this...hidden mass, you can't hide anymore, lil beeotch...
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/06/01/a-particle-physics-first-researchers-watch-neutrinos-change-flavors/
...and wacky sinkholes, and old shoes...and...
But for the more esoteric I pose this question, is there heaven on earth? Bonus points if you don't play Pascal's Gambit...
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 07:59pm PT
|
"To distinguish the spiritual from the material is fine. -As long as it's understood the spiritual is obedient to the material."
You're not grasping the basic concept here. You're just spinning around in what you believe - which is material reductionism, whereby the evolved brain "produces" spirit.
Put differently, matter produces space or void. Is that true?
Since we have already discussed the notion that the All or "God" is not a thing, you must look to the void or nothingness. Now in the world we live in, does space "source" matter (which is both matter and a wave form), or does matter source the field?
Or is it the case that space is matter and matter is space, exactly.
JL
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 08:02pm PT
|
Largo wrote-
"You're not grasping the basic concept here. You're just spinning around in what you believe..."
Ditto.
I guess it is part of what makes America great. You get to express your stance in Believersville and so do I.
We believe. We act on those beliefs. And our destinies are revealed.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 08:08pm PT
|
Go drive your car without getting into it .....
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 08:52pm PT
|
Everybody on this thread, myself included, is spinning around in what we believe. I see no change in peoples beliefs from post 1, didn't expect to, time to move on.
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 08:56pm PT
|
people still use ditto?
major flashback.
i think i'm gonna make like a fetus and abort.
|
|
426
climber
Buzzard Point, TN
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 09:09pm PT
|
...we are finding that when muons turn tau that matter does create void. Time will tell.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 09:10pm PT
|
Donini "...... time to move on."
We all have been moving along all along.
Static ropes don't work too well on hard leads where you might fall .......
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 09:19pm PT
|
i'm also a campbell reader, 426, but i'm wondering about your post--just a rather superficial report on advanced physics, as so many of them are.
i have a copy of what was published of campbell's unfinished final opus, the world atlas of mythology, in five volumes (he had planned more.) he groups ancient myth into two broad categories--the way of the animal powers, or the old hunter-gatherer societies, and the way of the seeded earth, or agricultural societies. in this broad sea change of human development, mythologists see the rise of modern religion.
in the old way, the shaman's way, humans don't consider themselves anything but part of nature. totemism is strong--we felt allegiance with various animals, and we looked to these key animals for success in the hunt. we didn't try to change the environment, we just rolled with its punches and felt at home.
then came agriculture, and many mythologists feel that modern divinity arose with that. if you want a feel for it, just stop by a country church, anywhere in the country, on sunday. don't you dare argue religion with the farmers, all dependent on a host of factors for their living, with so many things that can go wrong. these guys have a lot to pray for.
in its early form, agriculturalists realized they needed help. their identity was no longer with nature, but as an exploiter. and weather was the key. so they looked heavenward for help.
|
|
EvolveOrExtinct
Social climber
SinCity
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 10:23pm PT
|
using the words" all, without a doubt, absolutely", and so on.
No, scientist dont use those words when describing the world, we are not that vain or egocentric to think we or our "Higher ups" are omnipotent. However there are tangible results that can be observed to be "without a doubt, absolutely" when proper scientific technique is used to test or support a hypothesis that may explain part of the picture. This evidence based "belief" has a rational foundation and is something that can be trusted without a leap of faith.
Religion and people who believe them on the other hand do rely on a leap of faith because nothing you have that supports any religions is any more than here-say, mysticism and fairy tales recorded posthumously.
|
|
rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 11:10pm PT
|
Jan...
Why is it that the most devout, especially in the Bible Belt, tend to have the highest divorce rates, spousal abuse rates, child abuse rates, teen pregnancy rates in the US?
Also note that the KKK is/was a Christian organization... What is it that they most often light on fire? A lower case "t", huh? How many "fine Christian white men" would be disguisted to see their daughter marry a black man? Get real before you start playing the "race card".
|
|
rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 11:14pm PT
|
And ID... STOP spamming my email! I don't want to buy your ice axes or screws.
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 11:18pm PT
|
the KKK is/was a Christian organization..
the KKK was the terrorist wing of the Democratic party in the reconstruction south. The bylaws exclude Blacks, Jews and Republicans.
Are you going to tar all Democrats with the same brush?
A bit of a flaw in the logic there.
You better do a bit more research on some of your other statistics as well.
|
|
rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2010 - 11:25pm PT
|
Hey rrrADAM, what about all those people who work with "God as you understand him." Ever thought about the really far out implications of what that means, or the effectiveness of the "group conscious," or "God does for you what you cannot do for yourself." Yes, I know quite a bit about that... Been clean and sober for over 21 years. I have a higher power, as I understand it... It started off as the group, then pretty becamse much everyone who genuinly cares about me and/or has my well being in mind... A couple in this thread are a facet of that, and they may or maynot know it. As a collective whole, they certainly are a "power greater than myswelf", and their 'group concience' doesn't lead me astray, as if I am honest with them, they tend to give me sound advice... No need to try to interpret the word of God,or have to read tea leaves or rolled bones. I also sponsor many people, and most of them call Jesus, or God, their HP, and I'm OK with it, as long as it works for them, and they have a practical benifit. Some do not, and suffer because of it, so I have them rework 2 and 3, to get a better understanding.
My take on this is - not standard by any means - is that things might be a lot more fluid and mysterious than we can ever imagine. That is, our consciousness or power of choice does not "create" God anymore than the brain "produces" consciousnsess, but that we subtly influence the outcomes in our life by where our mind is at in terms of our beliefs and so forth. If we believe there is no God, than we reap the psychological harvest of believing as such. Being infinite, the universe will support, in subtle ways, whatever we bring into being by way of consciousness. We are not sourcing the results, per se, meaning we are not creating out of noting, but if we decide to go into a hardware store, so to speak, we will find what there is kept in a hardware store. If I choose an atheist position, I will experience what that position carries with it, as opposed to my brain sourcing the content of that position. I am well aware of your take John, as I have spoken with you about it. Sorry, I still haven't gotten to really dive into those CDs you gave me. I need to do better.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!