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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 11, 2010 - 10:46am PT
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"The Word of God" is not really a circular argument vis a vis Charles Manson since said "Word" is the work of humans.
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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Jun 11, 2010 - 11:24am PT
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Drifting, but just to set the record straight, the "word" of the Beatles was LOVE. I don't thnk Manson had this in mind that August night in 1969.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 11, 2010 - 11:51am PT
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"no more gaps, no more missing pieces"
Now we know 100% for sure you're talking out of your ass .....
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 11, 2010 - 11:52am PT
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But, if the opposite is true, that there is a God, and I meet Him at the judgement seat, I'm safe from eternal misery. For me, that was an easy decision. See, what you fail to see, due to being stuck INSIDE your box of dogma is this...
Every religion, past and present, is 'confident' that they have the right God, and that all other gods are wrong... Youself included.
The same reasons that you so confidently dismiss all other Gods, or even other Christians for not believing "correctly" (E.g., Muslims, Hindus, Mormons, Jews, etc.), is the same reason why so many dismiss your belief.
Seriosuly here... What reasons do you have for believing you are correct, and all others are wrong? Now, note that the 'reasons' you come up with, are the many of the same reasons all of the others confidently believe they are right, and you are wrong.
So... Since you believe in the same God that Jesus did - The God of the Jews. What makes you think that he won't tell you you've had you head up your a*# by not living up to his laws, as laid down BY HIM, and casts you to hell?
Remember, according to Matthew, Jesus himself said:
'I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses the experts in The Law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.'
(Matthew 5:20)
Pretty clear there, as he taught and lived by God's Law, as per the OT.
You however, believe that none of that matters now... That your God made laws that he either knew or didn't know (hmmm, makes you think, huh?) we wouldn't be able to follow... Doomed millions to Hell, until he decided thousands of years later to send himself to die to appease his own laws?
Yea... Makes perfect sense.
Also remember, that acording to the OT, we could already repent and be forgivin, so no need for Jesus to die so we could be forgivin. Do you need an atheist to show you where, or are you familiar with your own Bible enough to find it?
I bet not... Cause even that doesn't fit into your little box of dogma.
To close... "If there is a God..."
He certainly wouldn't be even remotely close to what you believe.
Now... I probably wasted time composing this reply to you, as I'm sure to you, when you read it all you hear are the muted trombones that the Peanuts characters hear when adults talk:
wha, whaaa... wha, wha, wha, whaaaaa...
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 11, 2010 - 12:02pm PT
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No other "God" makes the claim:
"16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Wow, now that's putting your reputation on the line!
Read it carfully, as neither God nor Jesus made that claim... The author did. If God made the claim he would have said "I", not "God" or "Son".
The glasses that you wear to read and interpret do not allow you to fucus well, thus your reasoning skills are seriously flawed.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 11, 2010 - 12:03pm PT
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Dr F -- "My answer to the question is simply "no purpose, other than the purpose of any other living thing on earth, live, procreate and die"
So you just created another religion.
Although you can't even see that you're doing that.
You're answer is worthless too .....
since you ULTIMATELY don't know.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 11, 2010 - 12:19pm PT
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Hey rrrADAM, what about all those people who work with "God as you understand him." Ever thought about the really far out implications of what that means, or the effectiveness of the "group conscious," or "God does for you what you cannot do for yourself."
My take on this is - not standard by any means - is that things might be a lot more fluid and mysterious than we can ever imagine. That is, our consciousness or power of choice does not "create" God anymore than the brain "produces" consciousnsess, but that we subtly influence the outcomes in our life by where our mind is at in terms of our beliefs and so forth. If we believe there is no God, than we reap the psychological harvest of believing as such. Being infinite, the universe will support, in subtle ways, whatever we bring into being by way of consciousness. We are not sourcing the results, per se, meaning we are not creating out of noting, but if we decide to go into a hardware store, so to speak, we will find what there is kept in a hardware store. If I choose an atheist position, I will experience what that position carries with it, as opposed to my brain sourcing the content of that position.
JL
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 11, 2010 - 12:25pm PT
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Yes .....
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 11, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
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Dr. F said: "So yes, there is a something that attaches to your brain when you maintain a belief in God, kind of like a parasite, that sucks the life out."
I have seen the exact opposite work so many times in various recovery groups that I remain amazed with how it all works. And I'm talking about black out drunks that have no capacity to stop drinking or using at all, and having their craving arrested entirely.
An amazing part of this is that if "God" is not working for them, they are instructed to "design" a God that will work, and to go with that. For many, their "God" is the group itself. Either way, the results are incontrovertible providing a person nurtures a belief in something bigger than their conditioned/evolved brain.
The amazing thing is that it is not, IMO, the belief that creates the results, which is standard materialist thinking. rather, the belief facilitates the results. And for non believers, the results are equally effective so long as their actions are in line with what a "higher power" is being called to do. A great example of this is rrrAdam, who while a non-believer, has pulled countless soon-to-be terminal users right off the brink, and still does every single day. The guy's a saint, I'm sure.
So my sense of this is that Dr. F has fashioned a "God" that is "like a parasite, that sucks the life out" of things, and so that's how he experiences "God." Appeals to perhaps change his description or criteria for "God" have affected no change in the man, and he remains apparently obsessed with his "parasite God," projecting this imagined deity onto the entire world, and every man who has ever lived or who ever will live, insisting (for reasons that only he can substantiate) that no one, ever, has experienced anything but his parasite God, which is the only true God, amen.
This is, IMO, a pretty standard case of a person getting what they asked for, then blaming the dark bounty on the "God" he himself anti-worships - the "Parasite God" that sucks the life out of those who cast alms on his hungry altar.
The horror . . .
In my mind this is all a load of witchcraft by way of negative obsessing, but who know, really . . .
JL
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 11, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
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This discussion simply shows our limits. Dr. F. and Norton choose to believe that there is no god, and nothing after death. If their hypothesis is correct, there can, by definition, be no evidence to support it. And please check your logic on this: your perceived lack of evidence does not prove non-existence.
I find it particularly interesting, though, that so many professed atheists get so upset about the faith-based beliefs of others, and yet their own belief ultimately rests on faith, too.
Finally, using the Bible to state Christian doctrine is both appropriate and necessary. What is written there is evidence of what contemporaries said, and believed. I think those who say that true Christianity differs from Biblical Christianity have a rather large (to me impossible) burden of proof.
John
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 11, 2010 - 01:58pm PT
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"Not true"
What part?
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 11, 2010 - 01:59pm PT
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Sorry Dr F
Largo pinned it correctly.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 11, 2010 - 02:06pm PT
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Even Donini as an atheist said it correctly, "Truth Never Changes"
Thus the truth transcends all material limitations past present and future.
Thus truth "lives" forever.
Where's your death .....??????
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jun 11, 2010 - 02:22pm PT
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Lack of evidence does prove non-existence
This is idiotic. No rational scientist would ever claim that you can prove something because of a lack of evidence. The only thing that a lack of evidence proves is that you have a lack of evidence.
Yes, The fact that no one has ever communicated with us from beyond the grave in any recordable way does mean that there is evidence that dead people do not communicate with us. It doesn't tell us if they can see and hear us or not, just that they don't talk to us.
Most of the atheists that I know do not get upset or concerned about the beliefs of others, just the idiotic actions because of those beliefs.
I think that everyone must have a belief. It's hard, nay impossible, to be totally objective. It is in our nature and programming to form an opinion about everything no matter what evidence there is. I have only seen pictures of the Eiffel Tower but I believe that it is real. Is that wrong or insane? On the other hand, I have heard of people who believe in fairies and even seen "pictures" of them but I believe that they are not real. How can this be when the evidence for both things is fairly similar for me personally? It is because there is more than just evidence. There is experience and wisdom and knowledge. I know from my own experience that a person can build things and that many people can build large things so believing in the Eiffel Tower is not so unexpected. On the other hand, I have zero experience with fairies or anything else magic to support their existence so I disbelieve. In fact, everything I am ever taught tells me that there cannot be fairies. Yet the same people who would tell me that there are no fairies would then try to convince me of an equally outlandish creature called God.
Doesn't that make sense to believers? Can't you understand why some people think you are nuts? The thing that makes you think that adults that believe in fairies are insane is the exact same thing that makes me think that you are insane. I see no difference between God, fairies, Santa Claus, vampires, etc.... it is all equal mythology.
Dave
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 11, 2010 - 02:54pm PT
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Dr. F. wrote: "The parasite God is the Christian God, that asks you to sacrafice your life for a cause, the cause of feeding the parasite at the expense of feeding the person."
IMO, the most glaring mistake you make is in universalizing this negative evaluation as being a kind of all-or-nothing "truth" experienced by all Christians. I am not a Christian, so I cannot speak for them on this issue, but it's clear that what you describe with the parasite God of yours is not the direct experience of ALL Christians, despite your attempts to interpret their experience in light of your own, and to catagorically tell others the "truth" about what they are experiencing. This is your obsession. Circling on a subject with this kind of rigidity does not make something true.
What's more you are still demanding that "God" conform to materialist criteria (brainwaves et al), even though this "God" has delivered nothing at all for you, and has, by your own admission, provided you with nothing but rancor and wasted time for "believing" it ever, or at all.
My question is: If the material/soul parasite model is unsatisfactory to you and feels entirely made up and hokey - and few blame you there - than why not consider another "God?" Or consider "God" in other terms? You seem blind to your own fixation on the parasite God of yours, and your insistence to define "God" only in those terms. You have dissed other spiritual paths because they have not provided experiences or "evidence" for the parasite "Christian God" of yours, even though it was never the intention of these spiritual paths to illuminate something that never existed in the first instance.
So now, if you refuse to reframe "God," or consider options beyond your parasite model, than the problem is not spiritual, rather psychological, and is related to you reaping a "secondary gain" from clinging so tightly to a "God" which so clearly is bogus and negative - from your perspective.
Dood, if the parasite God don't work - dump him. Move on. Consider other options. Stop circling on something that gives you no spiritual rewards, and never can. You're pumping a dry well with that Parasite God of yours, and most of all, you're betting against yourself if you think there is none other that the parasite that is open to you.
JL
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jun 11, 2010 - 05:58pm PT
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...truths don't change. Politicians are adept at spining things to produce a certain outcome. The Mormons "suddenly" decided that polygamy was wrong when they wanted statehood.
The concept that the Mormon Church denouced poygamy so Utah could gain statehood is quasi history, Mr Donini..... quasi history composed by an imperious American political establishment assured in its own righteous lordliness.
If you consider looking at intact Mormon history, unabridged by unctuous popular opinion, you might arrive at wholly different assessments. Nineteenth century Mormons wanted their own nation apart from the United States. Run out of Illinois after mob assassination of mormon leaders and under an order of extermination from the governor of Missouri, there was little veneration left for U.S. politics, Manifest Destiny or the "freedom and rights" histrionics of politicians and Protestant clergy.
Mormon church leadership pressed for seperatism in a commonwealth named Deseret. Unrelenting persecution and memory of murders...tar and feathering....economic boycott and exclusion.....summary execution of Mormon children (Haun's Mill massacre)....were testament (to Mormons) that they were under the lion's paw....and a profane and malignant lion at that.
Mob violence, often incited by a belligerantly pious Protestant clergy, declined after migration to Utah. But territorial law, imposed by eastern politicians and their surrogates was harsh.
In 1882, George Q. Cannon was denied a seat in the House of Representatives becauseof his polygamous relations. This was an incendiary issue in national politics. Shortly after, the Edmunds Act was passed, revoking the right of polygamists to vote or hold office, and allowing them to be punished without due process. Even if people did not practice polygamy themselves, they could have their rights revoked if having any connection to a group practicing it. Over one thousand Mormons were imprisoned for practicing polygamy. In 1887, the Edmunds-Tucker Act seized control of the church. In July of the that year, the U.S. Attorney General filed a suit to seize the church and all of its assets.
Following these political machinations, the Church found it difficult to operate as a viable institution. This legislation disincorporated the Church, confiscated its properties, including the seizure of its temples. For its very existence, the United States government demanded that the mormon church discontinue the practice of polygamy.
Certainly you're entitled to your sentiments about mormonism.....and accept conventional opinion. I have no adoration for the institution of polygamy....but the popular concept that Mormons denounced polygamy to gain precious statehood..... in a hostile and overbearing nation.....I find quite ludicrous.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 11, 2010 - 06:06pm PT
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so Jennie, what of the other minorities disenfranchised by the majority beliefs? certainly the Mormons aren't the only group to so suffer...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 11, 2010 - 06:15pm PT
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Run out of Illinois after mob assassination of Mormon leaders and under an order of extermination from the governor of Missouri, there was little veneration left for U.S. politics, Manifest Destiny or the "freedom and rights" histrionics of politicians and Protestant clergy. One can argue that emigration to and settlement of the Salt Lake area, and then Utah, was an expression of Manifest Destiny. Certainly the natives got the short end of the stick any way you look at it.
Also, it was improbable that an independent Mormon state would ever have been permitted to function as such by the US, which had its own firm views as to ownership of the west. Utah, as a 'nation', carried about as much weight as Texas when it was nominally independent, although perhaps more than the largely theoretical republic of California.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 11, 2010 - 06:16pm PT
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There is a mystery before us that is presently, and perhaps ultimately, unexplainable, as well we find feelings within ourselves that seem to have real efficacy. Who could deny the truth of such a statement; I certainly don’t.
But those two realities have produced a host of theological positions each with a sure sense of reality that is beyond question… and this is the problem.
The righteous dogma of any theological idea with its assertion of infallibility at the expense of the well being of “heretics” is a painful difficulty.
Still, we have to ask, “Where is God?” And how can such absolutist assertions be based only on the experiences of such a deeply personal nature and the speculation of infinite possibilities?
A question I’ve always found interesting is how could Satan, with his intimate knowledge of God’s nature and God’s absolute power, stand in opposition to what to what he (Satan) must certainly know is perfect?
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jun 11, 2010 - 06:17pm PT
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so Jennie, what of the other minorities disenfranchised by the majority beliefs? certainly the Mormons aren't the only group to so suffer...
Very true Ed and Anders....I fear Islam may well come to be the target of vicious and wide scale persecution in the U.S.....they have few friends in either secular or Christian quarters
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