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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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Aug 30, 2010 - 12:54pm PT
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LEB wrote If we oppose the Mosque and forbid it to be built, we compromise our own integrity as a nation of free speech and freedom of religion. If we allow him to build the damn thing, we permit him to stick a finger in our collective eye.
This is so hilariously wrong. In what way is it an insult that we uphold the values that our country was founded on and that we insist that we continue to wage war on large sections of the rest of the world for? If we accept that the "evil-doers want to destroy our way of life because they hate freedom" then literally the only way we can lose is to give up the freedoms that we value, including those of protecting minority peoples and the freedom of self expression. We should build a Mosque, a Temple, a Cathedral and a Church right on TOP of ground zero. The whole damn thing should be a giant shrine to religious tolerance and education, not the scene for fear driven protests and your nauseating allusions to "nefarious intent" and "impurities."
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Aug 30, 2010 - 12:57pm PT
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KaChing! That's money in the bank, Give that man a cigar. Or a toaster.
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dirt claud
Sport climber
san diego,ca
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Aug 30, 2010 - 12:59pm PT
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It seams there is an inherent malfunction in the human mind that keeps a lot of us from learning from our past.
I would believe you guys and think Islam is just another religion and we are just haters, but there is too much evidence that tells me it is not a peaceful religion. the main thing is I've talked to quite a few people from the Middle East that have converted to other religions and they confirm what Islam really is. If you people want to be foolish enough to just hand this country over your nuts. Are you really that naive to believe that what is going on in France and England is just Muslims wanting their freedom. I guess everything bad about Islam is made up?
And the argument that Christian religions have been oppressive and violent as well doesn't fly. The last inquisition as recall was a few hundred years ago. The problem with Islam is it hasn't changed in 700 years, other religions have. Do you guys think the reports of inhumane treatment coming from the middle east are all fake?
But what does it matter, I'm a conservative so that means I hate anyone who isn't white, I must be a Jesus freak, I have 20 guns and think everyone is out to get me, and I have absolutely no compassion for anyone.
Yup that's me.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Aug 30, 2010 - 01:01pm PT
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Hey this came from FOX, it can't be right, can it?
Fox news
State Department Condemns Rabbi Who Prayed for Death to All Palestinians
*
Aug 29, 2010 5:22 PM EDT
The U.S. State Department on Sunday issued a statement criticizing an Israeli rabbi who reportedly wished God would send a plague to kill off all Palestinians, including the "evil hater of Israel," Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.
"We regret and condemn the inflammatory statements by Rabbi Ovadia Yosef," State Department spokesman Philip Crowley said, noting that the rabbi's comments do not reflect the views of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
"These remarks are not only deeply offensive, but incitement such as this hurts the cause of peace. As we move forward to re-launch peace negotiations, it is important that actions by people on all sides help to advance our effort, not hinder it," Crowley said.
The inflammatory statements by the rabbi, reportedly delivered during Saturday prayer service, come just days before Abbas and Netanyahu are scheduled to arrive in Washington for direct peace talks stalled for the past two years.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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Aug 30, 2010 - 01:12pm PT
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Also, if one new thing came out of this whole mess it was discovering that Bloomberg has more balls and integrity than Giuliani. Who'd have guessed?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 30, 2010 - 01:15pm PT
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dirt claud said:
And the argument that Christian religions have been oppressive and violent as well doesn't fly. The last inquisition as recall was a few hundred years ago.
The last lynchings were not a few hundred years ago.
http://www.pridedepot.com/?p=738297
"Christian campus has mock Obama lynching"
Between 1880 and 1960, 200 anti-lynching bills were introduced, and seven presidents urged their passing. Filibustering Southern senators scuttled the vote every time, saying a lack of law enforcement in the tumultuous postwar South necessitated mob justice.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 30, 2010 - 01:27pm PT
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Mohamed’s Ghosts: An American Story of Love and Fear in the Homeland
by Stephan Salisbury
—Reviewed by Angilee Shah
The introduction to Philadelphia Inquirer reporter Stephan Salisbury’s investigative memoir Mohamed’s Ghosts is titled “How to Take Down A Mosque.” It’s an eye-grabber for anyone who is watching closely the controversy around the Park51 Islamic community center and mosque slated to be built in Lower Manhattan.
But Salisbury’s book takes us to another mosque in a rundown neighborhood in Philadelphia. Ansaarullah was created in January 2002 and closed in 2008 after years of FBI surveillance and deportation, forced or self-imposed, of the mosque’s top leaders. Salisbury forces us to question our values as Americans, our national security and cherished freedoms. His is a book about the nature of fear — what it gives us license to do and say, how it colors our understanding of entire groups of people. In Mohamed’s Ghosts, we also find an answer to the question on many minds today: why are so many people so uncomfortable with the idea of Muslims worshipping two blocks from Ground Zero?
As Salisbury argues through the case of Ansaarullah, America’s fear of terrorism has morphed into a general distrust of Islam. Probable cause has been replaced with a policy of domestic preemptive strikes. Ansaarullah’s imam Mohamed Ghorab was arrested in high drama while his daughter looked on from the front of her school. His mosque was raided with dogs and weapons in tow. The media coverage and the FBI’s informant strategy destroyed trust within the community that once benefited greatly from the mosque. Even as investigations into alleged tax fraud and terrorism training turned up no leads, at least six members of the mosque were arrested for immigration violations, six were detained and released, and more were questioned and blackmailed to provide information about terrorist activity that never actually happened. “My sense is that once a suspect is identified, authorities are reluctant to let go, no matter what,” Salisbury explains.
Salisbury narrates the broader picture of domestic counterterrorism around the country after 9/11. He explains how the FBI monitored Middle Easterners, South Asians and Muslim groups, and drew information from within their ranks. In one devastating chapter, he lists hate crimes — murders, beatings, arson — committed in the name of 9/11 against immigrants and Americans, many of whom saw little to no justice. He draws parallels with the FBI’s infiltration of the Communist Party during the Red Scare, when informants were used not against a specific criminal activity but against a set of beliefs. Salisbury also gives voice to prosecutors and law enforcement, who say they have to pursue leads and suspects with whatever tools they have, while keeping information about them confidential for national security.
It becomes difficult to justify the human cost of our domestic war on terror, however, when, thanks to Salisbury, we get to know the people affected. What does it mean to be interrogated or held in solitary confinement, or put on a confidential watchlist that cannot be altered? The costs are much greater, it turns out, than just time. The individuals profiled in Mohamed’s Ghosts are ruined; they lose their homes, their families, their health. They suffer severe psychological effects, untenable damage to livelihoods and relationships, sometimes by a mistaken keystroke or minor error in a visa application. One mosque member who lost his family after he was imprisoned and deported says at one point, on the phone from Jordan, that torture or death would have been better than the personal destruction he endured.
This is not a typical arms-length work of journalism. Salisbury chronicles his own journey as an American watching his country make choices he does not agree with. “It was a shock of familiarity that finally awakened me to the cultural continuity represented by the war on terror,” he writes. “Freedom threatened leads defenders to threaten freedom.” In truth, Salisbury is haunted by the stories of the Muslims he reported on in Philadelphia. The import of this book is clear: before we rush to judge, we should allow ourselves to be haunted as well.
Excerpt: “I was drawn to this spot, the corner of Wakeling Street and Aramingo Avenue in Philadelphia’s old working-class community of Frankford Valley, by an easily overlooked whitewashed cinderblock building across from the Baptist Center — a one-time auto body and repair shop, in recent years converted to a mosque. There were no worshippers on this day, however. The central bay door was pulled shut. A chain-link fence, tangles of weeds growing up through its interlacing loops, surrounded by buildings and parking lot. A dirty yellow Abco Auto Body Sign teetered over the barbed wire atop the fence, and a metal gate stood chained and padlocked shut. The windows were boarded up… Emptiness soread now like a durable stain down Wakeling, but for a moment, an instant in the life of Frankfurt Valley, this spot had been one the dramatic focal points of the Global War on Terror.”
Further Reading: A Mosque in Munich by Ian Johnson and Why the French Don’t Like Headscarves by John R. Bowen.
Angilee Shah is a freelance journalist who writes about globalization and politics. You can read more of her work at www.angileeshah.com.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Aug 30, 2010 - 01:29pm PT
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Thanks Weschrist but you have to admit a picture is worth a thousand word url.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Aug 30, 2010 - 03:50pm PT
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just out of curiosity-
when was the last time a person or group acting out of FEAR had that fact pointed out to them, and then responded with:
"oh my gosh, you are exactly right!
"our whole outlook here is fear based, and we are, as a result, expressing primarily hate and negativity! sheesh, thanks so much for pointing that out!"
of course they are not saying that.
(of course you are not saying that)
why do you think that is?
hmmmmmmmm...
well for one thing, big talkers (bold americans, for example?) might be disinclined to cop to being afraid, when they envision themselves as being courageous and proud.
so their egos (your egos) are attached to a certain idealized self image, that of a courageous defender of their homeland.
so what is fear?
what is courage?
is it excluding people not like you?
is it defending people only if you feel they are like you?
look at the rise of fascism in any instance in history, and see how it began. look at how/why the people were rallied around the idea of "unity".
you people are scary, seriously.
and yes, i am afraid, of YOU, and everyone in my country who is like YOU.
this country is barely over 200 yrs old, that's an infant, from a historical perspective. our story has yet to be written, in many respects, and YOU are the greatest threat to the PROUD and BOLD ideals upon which this country was founded.
and that, in my mind is not at all a controversial statement.
Muslims wanting to worship openly, i am fine with.
it's the Christians we need to be weary of.
not Christ.
not Christianity.
the Christians.
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dirt claud
Sport climber
san diego,ca
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Aug 30, 2010 - 04:06pm PT
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I don't know any religion that in it's teachings has it written to get rid of all non-believers and treat woman like sh#t the way they do.
Christian religions have a problem with people interpreting the bible in a jacked up way, but the bible basically says to be good to others and treat your fellow man/woman well. Sure it says you need to become Christian to be saved, but it doesn't say I will kill you if you do not become Christian. Correct me if I'm wrong?
The basis of the Koran tells you to get rid of non believers if they will not convert, woman have half the brain of men and it's ok to kill if the religion is disgraced in any way. The stories of daughters being beaten and killed by family members after being raped by a non Muslims are not fake. And if they are show me the proof. Hell, I just typed in "Muslim father kills daughter" on google search bar and found about 5 stories right away that pertain to this type of behavior. Are people really that blind.
How the hell do you compare some idiots protesting and hurting people with words and emotions to people actually bombing and killing innocent people for no reason except "your not Muslim". The Koran tells you to treat people well if they are Muslim otherwise get rid of them. Tell me I'm wrong about that.
By the way, was Obama really lynched? I had no idea this was still going on in the U.S. I was under the impression it was just a protest. Your going to tell me all Christians believe Obama should be lynched?
My point being, you will find all kinds of Christians, good ones and bad ones, but there is only one type of Muslim, the kind that follows the Koran, and there is only one interpretation of the Koran, it's the same one that's been followed for 700 years.
Has anyone here seen anything to show us a divide between good Muslims and bad Muslims? I can tell who the loony Christians are pretty easily, like the links you sent Ken M.
Unless I see a sect of the Muslim religion that clearly seperates itself from the violent ones I'm not convinced. I would think if peacefull Islam really exists than there would be peacefull Muslims out there telling me about it and convincing me that there is not only one way to inerprit the Koran. But I have not seen one anywhere, all they do is defend the religion. If I'm mitsaken please send me some proof to show that there are sects of Islam that protest this behavior.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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Aug 30, 2010 - 04:23pm PT
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I don't know any religion that in it's teachings has it written to get rid of all non-believers and treat woman like sh#t the way they do.
Christian religions have a problem with people interpreting the bible in a jacked up way, but the bible basically says to be good to others and treat your fellow man/woman well. Sure it says you need to become Christian to be saved, but it doesn't say I will kill you if you do not become Christian. Correct me if I'm wrong?
The basis of the Koran tells you to get rid of non believers if they will not convert, woman have half the brain of men and it's ok to kill if the religion is disgraced in any way. The stories of daughters being beaten and killed by family members after being raped by a non Muslims are not fake. And if they are show me the proof. Hell, I just typed in "Muslim father kills daughter" on google search bar and found about 5 stories right away that pertain to this type of behavior.
Quotin' for ignorance.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Aug 30, 2010 - 04:50pm PT
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but there is only one type of Muslim, the kind that follows the Koran, and there is only one interpretation of the Koran, it's the same one that's been followed for 700 years.
that is simply ignorance.
it's symptomatic of what is going on in america, and it's simply ignorance.
so there you have it, you sir, are ignorant.
at least in this case.
=)
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dirt claud
Sport climber
san diego,ca
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Aug 30, 2010 - 04:52pm PT
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And how exactly am I "quotin ignorance" HighDesertDJ.
I'm not a talking head, I write what I really feel and believe from the world I see around me. And beings how I don't know everything in the universe I'm sure I can be ignorant about many things in the world. So enlighten me and I will admit to my wrong doing. But, if you believe I'm writing ignorance because you don't agree with me than that is just stupid. So please, explain give me examples what ignorance I'm quoting.
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dirt claud
Sport climber
san diego,ca
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Aug 30, 2010 - 05:03pm PT
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You guys just going to call me ignorant or are you going to tell me why I'm being ignorant and give me some examples here.
Matt,
Where are the other sects of Muslims claiming they are peaceful, Show me an article or internet link denouncing violent Islam by a Muslim.
What is the other interpretation of the Koran that I'm missing here? If you have one than what is it.
I'm not afraid of Muslims, hell I'd love to talk to a few so I can be proven wrong. Sh#t, I hope I am wrong, I really do hope most or all Muslims are peaceful. I would much rather be proven wrong and realize I was ignorant than be right about this.
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dirt claud
Sport climber
san diego,ca
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Aug 30, 2010 - 05:09pm PT
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Looks like we are going into the classic left wing comeback. Just call people ignorant and intolerant, and they will eventually shut up, right.
It's worked really well through out recent history, I can see why you guys use this tactic.
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dirt claud
Sport climber
san diego,ca
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Aug 30, 2010 - 05:39pm PT
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weschrist,
There are about twenty different versions of these quotes depending on which bible version you read (http://bible.cc/judges/19-24.htm);. I believe you just proved my point. There are many ways to interpret the Bible therefore you can differentiate between the sects, good or bad. There is only one version of the Koran that I know of, if there is another than show me. This has nothing to do with "I just hate Muslims and have no tolerance"
qoute me some passages from the Koran and show me how many diffirent versions there are
Your women are your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like . . . . (MAS Abdel Haleem, The Qur’an, Oxford UP, 2004)
Wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles. Of course, men are a degree above them in status . . . (Sayyid Abul A’La Maududi, The Meaning of the Qur’an, vol. 1, p. 165)
4:34 . . . If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great. (Haleem, emphasis added)
O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil). (9:123)
Please provide me with the other interpretations for these quotes that I'm missing.
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dirt claud
Sport climber
san diego,ca
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Aug 30, 2010 - 05:52pm PT
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Hope your right Dr F.
I'm honestly going to make it a point to meet more people who believe in Islam so I can find out if what you say is true. Perhaps there are other interpretations and they can be explained to me. I guess this will be the only true way to find out. At least if they call me ignorant they will tell me why I'm being ignorant about Islam.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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Aug 30, 2010 - 05:55pm PT
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dirtclaud whined Looks like we are going into the classic left wing comeback. Just call people ignorant and intolerant, and they will eventually shut up, right.
It's worked really well through out recent history, I can see why you guys use this tactic.
Well, what else would you like to call a spade?
You claim that the Bible preaches nothing but goodness and the Koran is full of evil things. Well, here are some Bible quotes for you:
On daughters and slavery:
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
On wives:
Wives, be subordinate to your husbands, as is proper in the Lord. (Colossians 3:18 NAB)
On not doing what a priest says:
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
On worshiping another religion:
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
and again
Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Left Behind video game based on the extremely popular Born Again book series where players run around converting those that they can to Christianity and killing the rest: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Behind:_Eternal_Forces
Does this make Christianity an evil religion? If there was a Muslim video game where you had to convert or kill anyone who wasn't a Muslim, wouldn't that be front and center on Fox every single day and night? If similar passages in the Koran mean that Islam is evil then I don't really see how we can reserve judgement on Christianity. I'll leave it up to you to decide.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Aug 30, 2010 - 06:00pm PT
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dc-
do your own research, i am not your paid eye-opening tutor.
many have taken that tactic online, it's a ploy. you are unlikely to ever change your biases, and i am too old and unidealistic to believe the key to your changing them is ME...
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