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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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Aug 29, 2010 - 05:27pm PT
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LEB said There is no ethical way to stop it and still maintain our integrity.
Uh...there is no LEGAL way of stopping it.
TGT said It's a Victory Mosque in keeping with hundreds of years of tradition.
Similar to your tradition of parroting whatever generalized propaganda you picked up that morning over at RepublicansWhoPretendNotToBeRepublicans.com
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 29, 2010 - 05:34pm PT
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The dude behind it has a completely duplicitous line of rhetoric depending on whether it's in Arabic or English.
Completely in keeping with the doctrine of Taqiyya. (look it up)
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Aug 29, 2010 - 07:01pm PT
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edit wrt ^^^^
so lemme get this straight-
in an effort to point out how insensitive someone in another religious group is being, you are comparing them (and the building of their community center and house of worship) to an individual with extreme body odor...
how very... sensitive... of you.
what an ugly american.
in all seriousness, ho do people really think like that?
muslims should be highly concerned with what your reaction might be-
..and yet, you compare their religion and it's place of worship to bad body odor.
hw "american" of you, that old man might have said.
one time while in thailand (before 2001), an older scandanavian gentleman, upon learning i was an american, said to me, "americans, such an inward looking people".
[/edit]
it's quite pathetic what a circle jerk these threads become, you same 6 people were saying the exact same thing hundreds of posts ago... just sayin.
here's something new:
you who are relying on public opinion polls to make you case-
(i.e the vast majority of americans/ new yorkers are opposed)
1) when this idea was hatched, few opposed it. you can even find clips of fauxnews hosts speaking positively of it (actually one of the primary shareholders at FN is a big funder of the imam), and in fact john stewart has even showed these clips, for the purpose of mocking fauxnews, on his show.
2) the current media/ public opinion frenzy (perhaps now dying off, other than on ST) began with "cries of outrage(!)", so all the news coverage has been either negative commentary, or else responding to negative commentary.
3) THAT SWAYS OPINION, but not for long.
4) if you poll about gay marriage, for example, over time, there is a clear trajectory over time toward broad acceptance in society. further, it can be shown conclusively that opposition to gay marriage is at least to some degree concentrated in some of the fastest shrinking demographics in our society, while the opposite is true for acceptance, so one can extrapolate a continued pattern in the polling, over time.
5) so... getting all fired up over what 2000 random people say on august 16th 2010 is not that useful.
6) i will wager that anyone with the time to look will have difficulty finding much of anything of consequence that americans are generally becoming less accepting of over time, especially as compared to the opposite. that's because this country is on a trajectory toward openness and progressiveness. read 'em and weep.
7) before too long those of you making these anti-muslim, anti-mosque pronouncements will be dead (and that will be sooner than for the rest of us, on average, because people with "values" like yours are typically OLDer- so cheerio old chaps!), and what's more, your off spring are FAR more likely than not to be to the left of where you are on this topic and many others, so if you are growing tired of it all, it may be because you are swimming upstream.
... meanwhile, the rest of us are out for a nice float, down river, going happily along with the current, as it were.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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Aug 29, 2010 - 07:21pm PT
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TGT- I'm still waiting for you to explain to me the Earth shattering significance of that video you heroically linked.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 29, 2010 - 08:02pm PT
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Jon Stewart brilliantly points out that the guy that Fox has been portraying as an evil 9/11 sympathizing billionaire who is funding the Terror Mosque is actually the second largest shareholder of News Corp (Fox).
So that is a good news source nowadays? Funny how you guys are critical of fox when they report facts, and yet cite a comedy show as news.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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Aug 29, 2010 - 08:05pm PT
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Oh I'm sorry bluering. Did you actually watch the clip, look up the information and then find it to be incorrect? I can only assume that you are scoffing because you have better sourced facts that contradict what was presented. I can't imagine that you are the kind of guy that would simply attack the source of information as a lazy way of avoiding having to address the points being made, are you?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 29, 2010 - 08:28pm PT
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Well, Stewart's Daily Show is THE number one source that young people
between the ages of 19-34 report as their source for news.
Whether one likes his program or him personally, no one who studies voting disputes the
tremendous impact that young voters are having now, and more importantly
will have for the next 40 years, on candidate and political party affiliation.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Aug 29, 2010 - 11:47pm PT
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That so many on the right, in both Europe and the U.S., strive against Islam’s peaceful aspect is not perplexing…but enigma, none the less. The power of Muslim voting bloc in contending against government that does not comply with Shariah law would, by all imperative, be polarized with the conservative.
The primary obstacle for conservatives would be getting Islamic voters to the polls.
In California, 3.4% of the population is Muslim. Despite a low turnout of Islamic voters, over 90% voted in favor of Proposition 8.
Issues relating to abortion and sanctity of life, alcohol, drugs, gambling….Islam concurs with the U.S. religious right. Islam supports economic freedom and the individual’s right to private property. The Islamic state does not attempt to abolish economic inequality but minimize it through charity…and without secularism and economic liberalism.
Islamic concepts of justice are far more in line with western conservatives (than liberals). What issues of consequence, other than those regarding Israel, would they contend vigorously with the right?
This fear that every Muslim is a jihadist will hinder conservatives from including them in effective political alliance.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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Aug 30, 2010 - 01:30am PT
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Karl- Yeah that's what the current discussion is.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 30, 2010 - 01:58am PT
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LEB writes:
If we oppose the Mosque and forbid it to be built, we compromise our own integrity as a nation of free speech and freedom of religion. If we allow him to build the damn thing, we permit him to stick a finger in our collective eye.
I absolutely disagree with the second assumption, but for the sake of discussion, lets assume it.
The first option, is the aim of Muslim fundamentalist terrorists. It tears our country down, fundamentally. It moves us down the road of loss of freedom and liberty.
The second option, at worst, is a little bruise upon our ego.
What is the relative magnitude of the two?
I would advocate that those who chose #1, have chosen to ally themselves with America's enemies, to settle for tearing the principles and liberties of this country down, and are fundamentally unamerican.
Those who chose #2, have chosen something that does not fundamentally change the way America is, and is tiny, compared to the bruises we've taken by the Nixon cut-and-run in Viet Nam, the Eisenhower retreat in Korea, or the Bush policy in Abu Ghraib. And we've done just fine after all those and a lot of other things.
Lois, you continue to ally yourself with America's enemies, and I can't fathom why? Are you willing to hurt Americans (the ones who have to face the radicals that your policies have created) so that you can feel a little better about oppressing other Americans (the ones who are moderate, western-supporting muslims, who are fighting the terrorists)? That is what Al Queda wants. Why do you ally yourself with them?
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dirtbag
climber
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Aug 30, 2010 - 09:47am PT
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Look...it's a Muslim...
BOO!
And some folks deny that the GOP is playing to bigots and the worst impulses of American society.
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Jim E
climber
away
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Aug 30, 2010 - 10:05am PT
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It is your actions that gain you the respect of the world.
Exactly. So those that oppose the Muslim cultural center should STFU and observe the Constitution. Show the rest of the world that we mean what we say and won't be a bunch of hypocritical, racists and bigots.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Aug 30, 2010 - 10:16am PT
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That couldn't be it Dirtbag. It must be that all the "others" are wrong. Yea, that's it.
I can see Ignorance from my porch, you betcha.
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Jim E
climber
away
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Aug 30, 2010 - 10:39am PT
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But it IS fear. You FEAR how the rest of the (Muslim in particular) world will view this. You FEAR you will appear weak or conquered. What does it say about you when you are afraid of this "finger in the eye" from a group completely unrelated to the 9-11 perpetrators?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Aug 30, 2010 - 11:19am PT
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Lois the exact same could be said of your ASSumptions of Muslims.
This vid explains the fears that TGT, LEB, Blurring, Cornhole Chomper and the few others have.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIBZ5v7VK1U
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Jim E
climber
away
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Aug 30, 2010 - 11:45am PT
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This quote from Herman Goering comes to mind.
"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY."
--Goering at the Nuremberg Trials
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Aug 30, 2010 - 11:56am PT
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Back to the mosque, it looks like the project is imploding from within due to problems with the developer...
After tracking Sharif's finances and talking to acquaintances about his rough-and-tumble business style, I now don't think the mosque will be built at the location staked out near ground zero. According to people familiar with the mosque project, Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf and his wife, Daisy Khan, a community leader, were blindsided by the revelations about Sharif, making a partnership unlikely. Moreover, Sharif’s domineering personality troubles them because it doesn't fit into the slow, methodical, and even boring work of building a nonprofit.
I expect that Rauf and Khan will gracefully bow out of this project near ground zero, lead an interfaith community effort to build an Islamic center elsewhere, and welcome Sharif and his family in the congregation with open arms. To me, that’s the best solution out of this political—and now PR—debacle. I'm also certain that somewhere in there the businessman in Sharif will see a profit.
Here's the whole article, not from a right wing source
Wow Dr F, You've really drunk the coolaid, eh? :-)
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Aug 30, 2010 - 12:20pm PT
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Judging by your typing your coolaid is laced with alchohol. A little early isn't it?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Aug 30, 2010 - 12:42pm PT
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Shareholder maybe. Not partner. You realize of course that Fox cannot control who buys their stock, only how many shares are available.
So the Ground Zero Mosque developer turns out to be a thug and tax cheat. You know, the guy who paid 4 mil in cash (for a property which was worth more than 11 mil before the building on it was wrecked in the 9-11 attacks) at the same time he owes 9 mil in taxes to NYC, and the Imam is "blindsided" by these charges. New York City should impound the property in lieu of back taxes. You bet your ass they would if it was you or I in his shoes.
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