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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 15, 2009 - 10:58pm PT
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Oh, by the way, there's a good hockey game on right now, so reading Job again, like I intended, will wait. Does that make me bad in God's eyes, Paul?
Paul, you like Wes, lack faith. I cannot help you find it. But at least you ask the initial questions. Talking to people like Skip and others here, more versed in the Bible than I, may be able to guide you to seek understanding God's intentions and His plan.
Next time the JW show up at your house, talk to them, question them...just don't be a dick, they're nice people for the most part.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 15, 2009 - 11:08pm PT
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Faith is an antidote to anxiety and is born of self- delusion and narcissism. To think that the god of this vast universe takes a special interest in the miraculous healing of any individual is the pinnacle of self-important egotism.
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rockermike
Mountain climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 15, 2009 - 11:25pm PT
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"Faith is an antidote to anxiety born of self-delusion and narcissism."
Perfect answer, but I don't think that is what you meant to say. ha
In my tradition - Bengali Hinduism (when I'm not hanging with the Pentecostals)- we understand we suffer anxiety due to false identification with this physical body. We are eternal spirit souls revolving from life to life through millions of bodies shedding them like old clothes only to receive a new model - but ever trying to taste the pleasures of physical life and ever frustrated that our inner selves are never fed the real food of life. The self delusion is this false identification, and narcissism is the attachment with one's false ego. Couldn't have put it better myself.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 15, 2009 - 11:30pm PT
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That is a unique take, Mike. Sounds like a Buddhist describing Christianity. I guess that's why the 5 major religions are, in their core, so similar.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 16, 2009 - 12:13am PT
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Paul -- "God is all knowing and all powerful, if that's the case then all suffering is his responsibility."
Paul, what kind of egomaniac are you? Your father told do not kill and you do anyways. Then you're punished and blame your suffering on your father and say he's responsible for that.
You're nuts.
Hey rockermike --- good one.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 16, 2009 - 12:22am PT
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You should read my posts a little more carefully.
Look, faith is an egotistical self delusion that allows the individual to feel reconciled to his/her fate. The idea that one can be certain of what happens after we die whether it's reincarnation, heavenly bliss or eternity with 72 virgins is ridiculous. The idea that a personal god takes an interest in our lives is disproved by the remarkable regularity with which we suffer and die. Get real.
Dogma refers to the tenets of a belief system. If you don't believe me look it up.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jan 16, 2009 - 12:24am PT
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or one virgin that is 72. The Koran is a little ambiguous on that.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 16, 2009 - 12:24am PT
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So ,,,,,
That's your DOGMA.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 16, 2009 - 12:27am PT
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You're nuts?
Great argument, I'll have to use it myself sometime. Get real.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 16, 2009 - 12:27am PT
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 16, 2009 - 12:38am PT
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It just dawned on me that a number of people on this thread either don't know how to read or simply don't bother. Try reading the posts as it makes for a much more cogent discussion.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 16, 2009 - 12:44am PT
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How would you know?
You seem to know everything with certainty and at the same time telling people there is no certainty.
You are playing GOD. But! You're a poser.
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rockermike
Mountain climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 16, 2009 - 12:48am PT
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I understood your meaning Paul, I was just making a little fun of the ambiguity of the way you worded your idea. Perhaps you could have more clearly said "faith is merely self-delusion and narcissism which stems from anxiety" or something to that effect.
To paraphrase some old Marxist: "atheism is the opiate of the sinner", or something like that. Faith is the first and primary victim of sin. And once faith is damaged then sin takes off like a snowball rolling down the Eiger (tie in to climbing there - ha)
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 16, 2009 - 12:22pm PT
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Wes, I think you missed the point...probably intentionally.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 16, 2009 - 12:46pm PT
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Most of the major religions begin with the premise that this world is not right, for Christians the world is condemned to sin or for Buddhism we must escape from existence in a world of sorrows. Perhaps the world just "is" and we should embrace it as best we can.
It's interesting that Christians like Wbraun and others are so ready to resort to name calling when the discussion gets beyond them. Sad. Too bad people can't simply address the issues.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 16, 2009 - 01:02pm PT
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Paul, Werner was addressing the issue. You are posing as God because you claim to know. You act like you know that there is no God and you act this way because religion is so flawed. Yet religion is simply mans attempt to know God. Religion just reflects the lack of knowledge of man, not whether there is a God or not.
Werner is asking you if you really know. He is just doing it in climber talk by trying to get you to see the bullshit that you create. Bullshit is bullshit whether it is created by religions, or by material scientist. The trick is to get past the bullsh#t, but one can not do this until one sees that one does not necessarily know. Thus he called you a poser.
Do you know if God exist or not, and if so, how do you know? Picking apart the flaws in religion does not disprove the existence of God. It just show that mans understanding of God is often flawed.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 16, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
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That's ridiculous. I don't claim to know. No proof exists as to whether or not there is a god. But to extrapolate from that that people are cured by miracles or that Christianity is the one true religion is nonsense. I was pointing out the many inconsistencies in logic supported by Christian believers. Name calling is name calling no matter what your vocation, avocation or hobby.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jan 16, 2009 - 01:54pm PT
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Hey Paul.... Werner is not christian. not at all. He worships the blue people. I think he's a Krishnavite.
Myself... my studies are in Hindu Tantrism (Rajanaka). But I accept that supreme consciousness (god to the non-duelists) is all within the relative world. Some make this world out to be absolute. But the Veda's say otherwise.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 16, 2009 - 03:02pm PT
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Why would god heal us miraculously only to kill us later? Sorry Christians but your arguments make little sense. If god is a personal god concerned with the affairs of humanity why would he allow disasters both natural and human to occur? There is a remarkable film of a 5 month old child dying of small pox, a time lapse progression of the disease; this film is at least strong evidence perhaps absolute proof that a personal god doesn't 'exist.
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