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rockermike
Mountain climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 10, 2009 - 01:32pm PT
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Have you ever been healed by prayer. Ever witnessed a real miracle?
(I know, some of you - perhaps most of you - think it is all fraud and fakery from the beginning. I don't think so, but I'm curious and open to either explanation. By the way, for those not in the know, Pentecostalism is the fasted growing religion in the world, mostly in third world countries.)
I'm fascinated by the culture and the tradition - and have ancestors who were deeply into it. I also have a chronic health problem that apparently needs a miracle to overcome.
But the Pentecostal Churches I have been to all seem to be boring white lower middle class affairs with a little bad rock music, right wing political views and no Holy Spirit. The services are as dry as the Episcopalians but without the intellectual content.
Is the tradition really alive still anywhere? Maybe I have to go to Appalachia (or Korea) to find the real thing. ha
Anyway, yesterday I ordered some official "Leroy Jenkins holy water" on the internet. I'll report back here on whether it works. :)
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Jan 10, 2009 - 02:15pm PT
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This is vastly complex and volatile subject rokkermike and I probably have too much to say on it. But I'm hesitant to discuss it in a forum as it is hugely primed for misunderstanding.
ps this morning I read the David Korten econ essay you posted. Thanks for that.
Bruce
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 10, 2009 - 02:28pm PT
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I do not consider myself to be a Christian or a Pentecostal, but I do believe in the healing power of God and have experienced that power. Like Bruce, I probably have too much to say and this does not appear to be the best place to say it, as the energy of flippancy tends to block any real conversation. It is still possible to have this conversation, I just think that there is too much of the spectacle in this place and so it would be difficult to have a genuine conversation.
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rockermike
Mountain climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 10, 2009 - 04:47pm PT
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Ha, Damn, you broke my faith. The holy water won't work now.
The journalist was kind of a prick too. IMHO. His skepticism is so thick he wouldn't believe his mother as to who his father is.
Actually the Hollywood movie mentioned in the news clip is what got me started thinking about this. The movie is rather favorable (I think Jenkins was involved in the production) and portrays the arson conviction as a frame up by an envious local law enforcement dude who wasn't getting a cut of the take.
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Jan 10, 2009 - 05:41pm PT
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I don't know anything about it as a religion, but as with all healing I do believe that the power of one's mind can have a huge effect on the physical body. Some people channel, or explain, that power through their religious faith, some just through positive thinking per se...
I'd hesitate to dismiss outright the possibility of non-medical (conventional medical) healing but think it has more to do with one's own thought processes and determination, and probably some luck, rather than the particular tenants of one organized religion or another.
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Jan 10, 2009 - 05:49pm PT
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I used to keep snakes.
I was arrested once for speaking in tongues although the police report called it "slurring" my words.
Maybe I'm Pentacostal and don't know it.
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climbinginchico
Trad climber
Modesto, CA
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Jan 11, 2009 - 12:47am PT
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I've been healed by prayer. Watched in amazement as my broken foot stopped hurting and swelling disappeared less than an hour after getting crushed. I knew it was broken because I felt bones snap, and my wife (EMT) and mother in law (nurse) both wanted me to go to the doc to get it set. Truly an amazing and faith building experience. My faith will never waver, as anyone who knows my tattoos can attest.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 02:32am PT
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I bet I know who climbinginchico is. :)
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jan 11, 2009 - 10:32am PT
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I'm Bapticostal, but if I showed up in church right now, I would need to fill in a sticker that reads, "HI MY NAME IS _". My bible has about a half-inch of dust sitting on it right now, under a chair where I haven't cracked it in a long time. Shame on me. But I know where to find the important bits.
Don't ever underestimate the power of God, or his ability to heal if it's his will. There is a reason that the Pentecostal church is growing, because for the most part it's the real deal - Spirit-filled Believers coming together as a community to worship.
The bible is pretty clear about how to tell the kooks from the legit - it doesn't say by their gifts you shall know them, rather it says by their fruits you shall know them. So firstly you need to look for a community of people who bear the fruits - which are achieved not by human effort [which is impossible] but by abiding in the Spirit. [middle chapters of John somewhere, you know, vine and branches stuff]
Now Pentecostals are big on the manifestation of the gifts, and if you're not a Believer, you might well think they are a bunch of kooks. Of course, some of them are, there are fakes everywhere. I'm pretty sure there's something in the bible that says even fakes can appear to manifest gifts. Consider your garden variety astrologist or fortune teller, for instance. Beware the dark side, seek the truth.
But hell yeah, I believe in healing, I've seen it, I've experienced it, so has buddy above. Healing is real, and you're knocking on the right door, cuz you know what happens when you knock, right? [if you don't, look it up] When I'm walking in the Spirit, in obedience, the occasional gift comes my way. But it's been a while - my bad. I'm not exactly what you'd call a prime example of a Christian. Thank God I'm saved, sheesh.
Ultimately, mate, it's a spiritual journey between you and Buddy upstairs. Get your bible, start reading and praying, and see what he has to say to you on your own first. I can suggest some places to start if you're interested.
That's enough for here. You can write me if you want more stuff. I'm a wall doctor these days, but I used to be a bit of a bible doctor. I could use some brushing up, maybe this is a wakeup call? Going to Kentucky this aft, underground Tuesday-Wednesday.
In Him,
"Praise the Lord and Pass the Pitons" Pete
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ChoochCharlie
Trad climber
South East PA
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Jan 11, 2009 - 10:48am PT
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Yes. Healing by God is real. Prayers do get answered, and sometimes the answer IS the one you wanted.
One does not need to be Pentecostal. I am not.
I have not been personally healed miraculously but I have witnessed it in my family and friends many times. My mom released from fibromyalgia, cancer cures in friends leaving doctors without answers.
I have had so many miraculous answers to prayer that I am left without any doubt of God's love for me.
The biggest impression was left after praying for a dying deer on the side of the road. 1 in the morning on a wooded country road, we were coming home from a movie. She had been hit by a car, broke all 4 legs. When we exited our car for a closer look she freaked and tried to run away, grinding her broken leg bones into the asphalt. It brought tears to my and my friends eyes. We got back in the car and prayed that God would have mercy and take her out of her misery. Let her die soon.
Saying amen, we just watched this poor deer, then noticed in the rear view mirror headlights approaching. The car slowed to a stop behind us, then turned on a third light, cop. He walked up to the driver door and asked my friend if we had hit her.
The cop walked over for a closer look, took out his gun, and shot her in the head.
He came back to the window and said, "I couldn't just let her suffer."
Too many people get caught up in the Power or prayer, and the Power of God.
The Peace of God is more important.
It strikes me that the people I know who have witnessed the Power of God through prayer before knowing the Peace are not changed. They see the power as something in them and miss the point. Those who have found God's Peace are changed and understand.
An old friend, many years ago was visiting my house as a teenager. He was out on the patio and found a dead bird that had flown into the picture window. Stiff and dead. Very dead.
He was on his belly staring at the dead bird the way teenagers might. He asked me if we could pray for it. Sure I replied. So we prayed for the bird to be healed. I went back inside and finished my chore and came back out a while later to find him still praying. As I approached, the bird shook his head and hopped to its feet. My friend picked up the bird and held it for several minutes and then it just flew away.
Miracle? Yes. But my friend was unfazed and continued years of poor life decisions that lead him away from Jesus and anything Godly.
Read the Gospels. Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. The Bible is full of people who were healed by or witnessed the miracles of Jesus and were not changed. But the people who embraced the Peace of God, they found what they needed.
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climbinginchico
Trad climber
Modesto, CA
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Jan 11, 2009 - 11:26am PT
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Shoot munge, you didn't even see half of 'em!
I thought about using the same un for SPC just for continuity sake but haven't lived in Chico for over 2 years.
Back to the topic at hand... God's powercan heal anyone he desires, another case-in-point:
When I was 16 I broke my neck playing soccer, clearly showed breaks on the first round of X-rays according to the radiologist. Then they had me, a terrified, paralyzed 16-year-old kid sitting in the hall all alone waiting for the MRI. Some black guy comes walking by and just after passing me turns around and asks if he can pray for me. I was raised atheist and thought "whatever. Can't hurt I guess" so I let him. Had never been to church or read a bible at this point. So I'm strapped to a backboard and totally immobilized and can't feel anything below my shoulders. So he gently lays his hands on my forehead and starts praying for me. I felt a feeling of warmth on my forehead that soon spread throughout my body and began to be able to feel tingling in my fingers and toes. He finished, smiled at me and said, "Be strong my son. God has healed you. God bless you" then he walked away, never got his name or anything. MRI showed smaller breaks than X-ray and no nerve damage. I was soon enough walking out of the hospital with no evidence of ever having broken my neck, totally healed. This was even three years before I came to know God and was saved. Don't doubt the power of prayer, God works in anyone he chooses, even the unsaved.
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andanother
climber
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Jan 11, 2009 - 11:43am PT
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Yes, I too enjoy insulting the intelligence of others by suggesting that my delusions are real.
If I don't fully understand something, or if I don't know all the facts about a situation, or if I am affected by any slight coincidence, then I automatically attribute it to a higher power because I desperately want to be simple minded. Thinking about stuff is hard!
It's very comforting to know that God is watching over me and taking care of me. I've always been afraid to grow up. I wish I could go back to being six years old and just let my parents coddle me and make all my decisions for me. But since I can't do that, I've found that religion is essentially the same thing.
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climbinginchico
Trad climber
Modesto, CA
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Jan 11, 2009 - 11:47am PT
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Can we please try to keep this a mature conversation?
Also, there is no need to insult someone simply because their beliefs are different than yours. We're all entitled to our opinions, but let's be mature and civil about it.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 11, 2009 - 11:51am PT
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"I have had so many miraculous answers to prayer that I am left without any doubt of God's love for me.
The biggest impression was left after praying for a dying deer on the side of the road. 1 in the morning on a wooded country road, we were coming home from a movie. She had been hit by a car, broke all 4 legs. When we exited our car for a closer look she freaked and tried to run away, grinding her broken leg bones into the asphalt. It brought tears to my and my friends eyes. We got back in the car and prayed that God would have mercy and take her out of her misery. Let her die soon.
Saying amen, we just watched this poor deer, then noticed in the rear view mirror headlights approaching. The car slowed to a stop behind us, then turned on a third light, cop. He walked up to the driver door and asked my friend if we had hit her.
The cop walked over for a closer look, took out his gun, and shot her in the head.
He came back to the window and said, "I couldn't just let her suffer."
Someone watching this scene would have seen you crying and praying in your car while the cop took his gun and did something about it. And now you credit the prayer. You could be right that the deer died because you prayed to God and God answered your prayer using the cop as his tool. Or it could be that that the cop deserves more credit.
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andanother
climber
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Jan 11, 2009 - 11:54am PT
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"Can we please try to keep this a mature conversation?"
Uh........
What?
This thread is about Christian Pentacostals. Pretty sure that rules out any chance of "maturity" from the start.
"Also, there is no need to insult someone simply because their beliefs are different than yours."
Yes. I know. That's the point I'm trying to make. Suggesting that these experiences are "real" is incredibly insulting to many people.
If you're going to talk sh#t, you need to expect it to come right back at you. I apologize for not taking the moral high road and laughing it off, but this IS the internet after all.
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couchmaster
climber
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Jan 11, 2009 - 12:35pm PT
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Hi Mike:
I am both sorry and surprised to hear of this unnamed malady, as you lived a much healthier lifestyle than I did back when. I drank daily and excessively, smoked a pack a day, and ate voluminous quantities of meat, often raw. Still love the raw meat. All things you avoided then.
I can't you help out with an answer to that question but I do have a Pentecostal story. When my daughter Nina was @ 9-11 years old, she hung out with the penecostal girl who lived across the street. It was a fine family, very good folks. Nina had expressed an interested in going to church, but going to church wasn't one of the things I was interested in. My church is the outdoors, and Sunday is pretty much reserved for anywhere BUT inside of a church. Being the selfish prick that I am, I wasn't going to suffer through the church experience myself, but was wondering how to get her in when an opportunity chanced on me as if from the heavens. I was out in the yard massaging tomato plants or something and the Peneostal wife, Renee, happened by. Something I'll say right here about Renee for you readers: she was a wonderful woman. We all know those who let their Christianity be there only on Sundays and the rest of the week they're all just mean-spirited, asswipe, hypocritical, shrill bitches you can't stand to be around more than 10 seconds? That wasn't Renee. She was a true and gentle Christian to her core of the soul and I was proud and pleased to have known her. After a brief discussion on the weather etc etc, Renee asked me if I had considered taking my kids to church. I gave her the short version which left out the part about being a selfish prick, and closed with, “I sure wish there was a way she could learn about God”. Renee felt that there was, and with my approval, Nina could join them on their regular Sunday Sojurns to commun with God at the Pentecostal Church. Perfect!.
So months go by, and when Nina would come home or over Sunday dinner I'd routinely ask if she got to handle the snakes yet, but she didn't ever find that funny and didn't laugh at that one despite my near weekly attempt at getting a chuckle with it. One day I asked what they did all day and she told me. Turns out the kids missed most of the main service doing play things. But they did learn about the Lord, and they did get to speak in tongues! Speaking in tongues! Wow, now it was getting interesting! I asked her what that entailed, and she said that the folks would all stand around and open themselves up to the holy spirit, and then start babbling in some unknown language. I asked if she spoke in tongues with them and she said yes. Surprised, I asked her what that sounded like and she told me she just spoke in Japanese (she'd been in a Japanese magnet school and had been studying in Japanese all of her life at that point). Cracked me up!
2-3 years goes by and eventually they took the kids out of the play time and they only did the full service, which my daughter did not really enjoy so she stopped going. Soon thereafter, Renee got, what turned out to be fatal, brain cancer. The entire congregation came together and they laid the hands on and they all dug deep for prayers for Renee. A cure was not to be however and after @ 8-10 very slow, agonizing and painful months for Renee she finally died. I have often, while soaring high up towards the heavens on a Sunday sojourn up a cliff, wondered about this. Why didn't God make it fast and painless. I don't have an answer. They said at the funeral that God wanted her in heaven and called her home. Why God chose to make it a painful departure I have not an answer too and didn't have a chance to ask the pastor or I certainly would have, despite having been warned before the service from my wife specifically not to ask those kind of things.
So what have I've learned? Just that it's true what they say: "The lord works in mysterious ways".
Your results may vary Mike, and hope you get the cure or the fix for this thing whatever it is. Anyway, I thought you were a Buddhist?
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rockermike
Mountain climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2009 - 12:46pm PT
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Boy, Andanother is in a fighting mood.
As to healing, If one believes in God then yes, its almost a tautology, he CAN heal anyone any time. But from a theological point of view the question strikes me, why doesn't he heal everyone? Why the discrimination and why the need for prayer from a healer. It seems to me that anyone who is suffering or dying is intrinsically in a state of prayer whether they call it that or not. Is there some formula missing (In the name of Jesus...) or what.
And why are most Pentecostals from the lower class section of society? At least in the Azusa Street days (and in South Africa and the Appalachia et al.) the congregations were poor black and white working class people. Is it possible that God loves them more? Or could it be that the intellectualizing of educated people somehow blocks the spirit.
And then there is the bigger question of why evil (or suffering) exists at all if God is all knowing, all powerful and and all merciful. The greatest theologians of the ages still haven't answered that one. And why "create tragedy" (since God is the controller), only to then fix it in limited cases.
I believe Pentecostals tend to place the blame for illness on the devil and prayer then brings God's attention back to the situation. But this gives a little too much credit to the devil for my taste and too little credit to God's infinite powers.
Just some thoughts.
And thanks for the stories.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 11, 2009 - 01:22pm PT
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If one experiences a genuine miracle then one has proof of their belief and this, it would seem, makes faith irrelevant. If one has proof then one CANNOT have faith. Faith is, after all, belief without proof. Sorry believers.
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