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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jun 22, 2008 - 03:49pm PT
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So you Love them by treating them unequally? Is that Love?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 22, 2008 - 04:06pm PT
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Jody
"Help me out Karl, what was your point and what did it have to do with my last post?"
We don't have to condone behavior to allow it to be legal Jody. I'm sure there are hundreds of legal things you don't approve of already
Peace
Karl
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nita
climber
chica from chico, I don't claim to be a daisy
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Jun 22, 2008 - 04:12pm PT
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Jody, you are still missing my point, maybe one day we can speak in person.
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andanother
climber
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Jun 22, 2008 - 04:16pm PT
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"..."(2 TIMOTHY 3:16). "
I believe that's what they call a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Back on track here.
Jody brings up a good point about not condoning their behavior. The problem is that he is confusing religion with morality. Religion was once invented to try to bring morality to the masses. But as has already been mentioned, the Bible was written by many different people, with many different viewpoints. Timothy added that line to his book in an attempt to add validity. Seemes like it worked on some people.
The only reason homosexuality is considered "immoral" is becuase of the Bible. Step away from the Bible for a moment, and you'll see that those people aren't doing anything "wrong". They aren't harming anyone or anything. Their actions are NOT immoral. They are NOT sinning. They are just living their lives as they see fit.
Without referring to the Bible, can you tell me why YOU think homosexuality is immoral?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 22, 2008 - 04:31pm PT
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"Karl, thanks for the explanation. If I condoned legal homosexual "marriage", would I not be condoning the act itself?"
It's not about "condoning" Jody. You can feel however you feel personally. That might change in time or it might not. It's about treating people whom you don't jibe with as human beings and affording them fair legal rights.
You might not approve of Alcohol, but it's legal. It sure causes a lot more harm than we might imagine that "gays" do. You might not like that there are naked pictures on the net either. You might not even condone the other religions that people practice in this country. They can all still be legal.
Christians didn't used to be the Majority in the the world of power. They were discriminated against and persecuted. That's enough to remember in order to see that it's more moral to allow people to act according to their free will and let God judge their behavior by God's more wise standard.
If being Gay was a choice, can you look into your own desires and heart and tell us that becoming Gay would be an option for you if your religion endorsed it? If it's not a choice, we should have some compassion for it. Even if it's a choice, we can't judge it or make it any more illegal than we should eating pork or other prohibitions from Leviticus and so on.,
Peace
Karl
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 22, 2008 - 04:45pm PT
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"Listen, dirtbag, stop trying to micromanage God."
LOL, you're right. He's been doing this whole universe management thing much longer than I have.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 22, 2008 - 04:58pm PT
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Lois, my idea is that we are discussing whether Gay Marriage should be legal. I'm am only speaking to Jody regarding that issue. I'm not trying to suggest he should cozy up to gays nor even get comfortable with the idea, only that he should allow people outside his moral comfort zone to have rights and priveleges in society.
Rabbis, religious people and just about everybody else during the time of Jesus were almost universally married. Jesus wasn't and it's ironic that some reactionary people during his own time might have assumed he was gay and discriminated against him as such.
Lois, your post addressing the subject directly was very good.
peace
Karl
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jun 22, 2008 - 05:21pm PT
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"Give me an example where Jody mistreated a homosexual? Show me an ACTION of his where he discriminated against them. And don't cite his vote at the polls because he has an inviolate right to vote his conscience."
He is mistreating homosexuals by not allowing them the same rights as heterosexuals. No one is denying him his right to vote how he chooses. We are saying it does no harm to society to legalize homosexual unions, recognizing that God may not honor them and that their behavior may be causing them karmic problems, but that does not harm society. So why make it an issue?
The old testament allows slavery. Should we allow it today?
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,"
Jody, who chooses what is considered to be considered scripture?
Edit:
Actually I think it does harm society because there is a collective consciousness that we all contribute to. I also believe that drinking alcohol harms society yet I wont outlaw it because I don't think outlawing it does any good, people will still drink, and there are much more important things to base our vote on.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 22, 2008 - 05:27pm PT
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LeB wrote
"The bottom line, however, is that we all vote with our feet or more accurately our fingers and the "winner" (the ones who get to make the rules) is the side who gets the most votes. There are widely divergent views on these topics and, in fact, we have both sides are represented on this forum. Ultimately, the one which gets the most votes wins and then controls the state and so they, in turn, make the rules and write the laws."
The constitution was written to protect minorities, both religious and otherwise, so they get equal rights and protections. That's the issues. The majority cannot make laws that are unconstitutional without changing the constitution. That speaks to the state constitution as well, which is the issue in california as our supreme court here has made it a constitutional issue.
It's worth remembering that during the early days of the reformation, there were many, many places where the penalty for being Protestant was death. What's "condoned" for the minority keeps changing with time.
Peace
Karl
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andanother
climber
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Jun 22, 2008 - 05:39pm PT
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Isn't the Sabbath supposed to be a day of rest?
Why aren't all you sinners in church today?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jun 22, 2008 - 06:04pm PT
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" What this really boils down to (given that domestic partnership laws exist) is acceptance - plain and simple"
Not true as I pointed out earlier, because the domestic partnership laws do not include federal benefits such as social security. So while the wife in a heterosexual couple can keep her husbands social security benefits when he dies and vice versa, this does not apply to homosexual couples. If Jody supported them having this right, then I wouldn't have as big a problem with him, instead, he makes a lousy joke.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 22, 2008 - 06:21pm PT
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LEB:
"And, Karl, Jody has an absolutely right to practice his religion"
There's a climb in Yosemite called "God told me to skin you alive!"
Not that Jody would do that.
Out of impatience, he'd kill you first!
;-)
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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Jun 22, 2008 - 06:28pm PT
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I feel a great irony reading the posts about Jody being hateful to homosexuals. I know for a fact that Jody has a Lesbian friend whom he worked with for years. I don't know the woman personally but apparently her one time "partner" treated her badly after their breakup. Jody helped her through the bad time and they remain good friends.
Why the need to lay blame on a "goat"? Does that relieve us of our own burden of sins? Because one criticizes the homosexual lifestyle, does that equate with "hate"?
Homophilic behavior is just one component of a homosexual's humanity. Because one is critical of a friends homophilic aspect doesn't mean they reject their humanity. I have an uncle who is homosexual. The family never rejoiced in his lifestyle but he remains a full member of the clan.
If I'm critical of a friend drinking alchohol, does that mean I hate them and everyone else in the world who consumes alchohol?
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andanother
climber
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Jun 22, 2008 - 06:50pm PT
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"If I'm critical of a friend drinking alchohol, does that mean I hate them and everyone else in the world who consumes alchohol? "
So in this analogy, you are comparing alcoholism to homosexuality.
We are all aware of the negative aspects of alcohol. Both physically and socially.
So I would like you to explain to me why homosexuality is negative. Why is it considered immoral? What harm does it do to the individual? What harm does it do to others?
Their union doesn't produce children, so from that perspective homosexuality won't further our species. But lots of heterosexual couples choose not to have children, so are they sinners?
All of the "negative" things about homosexuality come from the Bible. Basically, a few thousand years ago some guy hated fags. He wrote it down, claiming it was the word of god, and today people STILL can't see it for what it is!
Talk about closed minded!?!?!?
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andanother
climber
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Jun 22, 2008 - 07:25pm PT
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Thanks LEB,
But I would like Jennie to answer the question. I know she can't, but I find a great deal of humor in the fact that she is referring to other people as "closed minded".
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 22, 2008 - 07:50pm PT
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Again, the bottom line of what we're talking about here is legal rights for people who pay the same taxes and premiums that we do.
Jody, would you support the government offering Gay couples civil unions with all the rights and privileges of Marriage , including social security benefits, without the name marriage?
How about if the Government got out of the marriage business for everyone?
Peace
Karl
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andanother
climber
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Jun 22, 2008 - 07:50pm PT
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Uh, Jody......
When you say things like that it only proves my point even more. If you can't answer the question, then you probably shouldn't try.
AIDS has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality. And even if it did, how does contracting a disease make it "immoral"?
Does that mean everyone with cancer is a sinner? What about diabetes?
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andanother
climber
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Jun 22, 2008 - 07:55pm PT
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I can't stop laughing about Jody's last response! That is some funny sh#t right there!
Jody, I would seriously like you to answer the question. How is homosexuality immoral?
Yes. Some of them contracted a nasty disease. Many people contract nasty diseases. Many hetersexual people have AIDS. It is a disease, and is IN NO WAY related to the preference of its host body.
So, HOW IS HOMOSEXUALITY IMMORAL?
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andanother
climber
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Jun 22, 2008 - 08:10pm PT
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Actually Jody, you didn't answer the question.
You simply stated an unrelated and unfortunate coincidence.
Once again, AIDS and gay sex are not related.
Yes, many gay men contracted AIDS. And at the same time, MANY DIDN'T.
Many straight people contracted AIDS, and at the same time, the lesbians DID NOT.
FACT:
Gay sax doesn't give you AIDS.
I know you're religious, and I know that religon is based on ignoring facts. So maybe it's best if you run along now.
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andanother
climber
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Jun 22, 2008 - 08:14pm PT
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"If you deny that a vast majority of AIDS patients are homosexual, then you are blind or ignorant, or in your case, probably both"
So the people in other countries don't count? Why are you ignoring them?
Is it because they aren't christian, or because they're black?
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