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dirt claud
Social climber
san diego,ca
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Jun 15, 2012 - 05:40pm PT
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Except for the disease factor. It appears to me the Spanish would have had a much much harder time conquering the natives of central Mexico if the Aztecs had not alienated so many of the tribes around them. The Montezuma legend thing didn't help either.
If you go to southern Mexico near Chiapas and Yucatan there are very many european looking Mexicans. Not sure if less interbreeding has so much to do with it as much as the fact that there were not as many Spanish or europeans that got north of Mexico City during the 1st years of the conquest.
Apocalypto was a pretty good flick except that the movie shows the Spanish landing at the apex of the maya culture. All the major ceremonial centers had been abandoned for almost 300 or 400 years by the time the Spanish landed in Yucatan.
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Jun 15, 2012 - 05:53pm PT
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During the siege of Tenochtitlan, the Spanish would catapult bucket fulls of their rotted teeth at the Aztecs in the hopes of spreading as much disease as possible. Very similar to delivering small pox infected blankets too the Sioux and Cheyenne...
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Jun 15, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
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Yaqui resisted.
Fit fire wit fire.
Exacted more than revenge.
Terror.
Still free.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
You did not conquer, only die.
Wah-nah-be.
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rmsusa
Trad climber
Boulder
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Jun 15, 2012 - 06:31pm PT
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An interesting table:
Distribution of slaves (1519–1867)[91]
Destination Percentage
Portuguese America 38.5%
British America (minus North America) 18.4%
Spanish Empire 17.5%
French Americas 13.6%
British North America 6.45%
English Americas 3.25%
Dutch West Indies 2.0%
Danish West Indies 0.3%
Brazil was the principal destination of the slave trade.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jun 15, 2012 - 07:55pm PT
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unfortunately the genocides of the past pale in comparison to the future we are facing
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Jun 15, 2012 - 09:19pm PT
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Interesting question without a good answer. I starting reading books on Indian history over 30 years ago. Not to become an expert but because I grew up in the North West where there was a lot of tension between the "Humans and the Indians" (a term coined by an Indian boy I was fighting with).
After reading dozens of books over the years I say both sides. After a bit the pattern is always the same. Disease is the biggest culprit and there are so many of them. Neither side can get off easy by any means. For those that say there are more white people in North America you then need to take into account the percentage of Black people in South and Central America. Not saying they caused the "problem". They are there because of actions taken by the conquerors.
It did take me a couple of decades (yeah I know I am slow) to come to the realization that most of the history books out there on "Indian History" are written from the perspective of our time since there is very little documentation out there about what these cultures were like before the large scale introduction of the Europeans. Once a person decides to start digging into this part of history the number of books out there drops off quite a bit. Still very many but comparatively there are less.
As far as Mel Gibson's movie. If a person thinks that is an accurate portrayal of history then you really need to start reading a few books. The good and the bad is, there are so many different books out there. Some seem to indicate that whites are all bad, some the opposite. Read a dozen of both and you will have scratched the surface enough to know that 90% of what you have been told is nonsense, most of the rest is conjecture.
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matlinb
Trad climber
Albuquerque
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Jun 15, 2012 - 11:49pm PT
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I don't know anything about history, just what I was taught in school and have read in a few books. However, to the few climbers who have posted, and do this stuff for a living I have a question.
I have read that the only people in the Americans to have a written language in Precolumbian times were the Mayan. If this is true, than the only original texts you can study were written by the Europeans at the time. And all of these people were on the company dole, so to speak, if they were in America. How much can you really trust that what they said was even remotely true.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jun 16, 2012 - 12:13am PT
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go to the head of the class matlinb.
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laughingman
Mountain climber
Seattle WA
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Jun 16, 2012 - 12:29am PT
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The spanish did not do all the conquering of the south America on their own. The portuguese carved out there chunk of the americas.
Personally I think the long term effects of spanish viceroys (they had little oversight and lots of corruption) did far more damage to the indigenous societys then cortez's butchering could ever have done.
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laughingman
Mountain climber
Seattle WA
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Jun 16, 2012 - 12:43am PT
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According to photographer and writer Aaron Huey....
The last chapter in any successful genocide is the one in which the oppressor can remove their hands and say, ‘My God, what are these people doing to themselves? They’re killing each other. They’re killing themselves while we watch them die.’ This is how we came to own these United States. This is the legacy of manifest destiny.” (Aaron Huey)
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 16, 2012 - 09:37am PT
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unfortunately the genocides of the past pale in comparison to the future we are facing
i think of that every time we go by the interpretive center at manzanar. we stopped in there once--it was quite enough. you can't redeem yourself from the injustices and atrocities committed today and tomorrow by putting the past into a neat little bundle.
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Jun 16, 2012 - 09:49am PT
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It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge. War endures. As well ask men what they think of stone. War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner.This is the way it was and will be. That way and not some other way.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Jun 16, 2012 - 10:32am PT
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I hope we all got something from this thread, t*r, no matter the original motive.
Has anyone any information about the Indian Museum in Sacto., specifically their collection of N.A. skulls? Our Cub Scout den/pack took the tour in the fifties and they were on display then, but I have not been back and wonder how the collection has fared since the Graves Protection Act. I understand the Act was a federal response to outraged Native Americans. But did the State of California respond to their protests in like manner?
Every time I think about that tour, I feel creepy. Every time I think about the beads our gang collected on the American R., I feel a little guilty. They came from graves. Times and attitudes have changed greatly since then.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 16, 2012 - 10:39am PT
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"let the dead bury the dead." wasn't it jesus who said that? some call him the prince of peace, but he's king of nothing in this world. sadly, sandstone conglomerate has gotten to the heart of the matter, but i wonder if he lived through the 1960s.
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