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Standing Strong
Trad climber
heart's all over the world tonight
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 12, 2008 - 05:10pm PT
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the spanish or the english?
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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Feb 12, 2008 - 05:12pm PT
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Dickey and Poppa Bush
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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Feb 12, 2008 - 05:12pm PT
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ooh ooops yah mean "Classical" history... he he
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Feb 12, 2008 - 05:23pm PT
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The Spanish.
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
heart's all over the world tonight
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 12, 2008 - 05:35pm PT
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^^^ that's what i'm saying. i'm aware of the atrocities on ALL sides, all over north america, but i thought the spanish were way, way bloodier/crueler than the english, esp. w/the conditions in their mines and missions.
i'd love to hear other people's thoughts/opinions on the spanish v. the english.
please feel free to expound on your opinions, rant and rave all you want.
thanks,
T*R
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Feb 12, 2008 - 06:00pm PT
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I feel like maybe Spanish atrocities were worse, what with Cortez rampaging his way around South and Central America. Also, there was the inherent slave labor, as you mentioned. At the same, the English stole people from Africa and brought them to North America, and then continued to break treaties with the people they hadn't slaughtered for the next several hundred years.
Why debate the worse of two evils?
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
heart's all over the world tonight
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 12, 2008 - 06:06pm PT
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reason i'm asking is because a prof thought it was the english, but she was making vague comments. i asked if the spanish were bloodier than the english because of their mines and missions but she got defensive and was rather rude - made a comment about the whole continent and everyone being killed off. well duh, but the spanish were still a lot bloodier/crueler than the english. this is not to say that the english wern't. but i was pissed. so i left. i didn't make a scene. i waited a couple of minutes and then slipped out the door. i have to go back on thursday tho. it's gonna suck. i'm not the only one who can't stand this prof. she does not have a great reputation amoung students here. i would drop the class but i can't because i need it to transfer.
there are a lot of interesting people on this forum and sometimes i like hearing people's input on this kind of stuff.
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ToeJamCheeseHog
climber
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Feb 12, 2008 - 06:14pm PT
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Spanish for sure. English tried to coexist with Indians as allies against the French.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Feb 12, 2008 - 06:15pm PT
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Most of the killing happened by disease. I'm not sure if that's "bloody" or not; it depends on what you mean.
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Feb 12, 2008 - 06:15pm PT
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Google the term "Black Legend" you'll find tons of info and opinions. It is controversial and hard to pick through all the propaganda, but the most important aspect, I think, is that Spanish atrocities were first condemned by a Spaniard, La Casas, while the English didn't produce any similar whistle-blowers until the anti-slavery movement of the 1800s. But it's a pot and kettle situation, ultimately.
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Feb 12, 2008 - 06:16pm PT
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Toe's wrong. Most of the time, the French aligned with the Native Americans.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Feb 12, 2008 - 06:19pm PT
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Los Conquistadors!
But then the English kicked their ass and sank their armada.
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Feb 12, 2008 - 06:24pm PT
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The French hooked up with Algonquins, the English with Iroquois and Cherokee.
Also, the English came to settle and colonize, so they had to try to coexist somewhat, while the Spanish initially came only for gold, intending to take it back to Europe, so they were more immediately exploitative.
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ToeJamCheeseHog
climber
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Feb 12, 2008 - 06:27pm PT
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True Domingo. I misplaced two words. That's why the English had to build so many forts. The English did not appear to engage in wholesale slaughter of Indians.
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
heart's all over the world tonight
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 12, 2008 - 06:29pm PT
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domingo - esp. in the area that you're from - great lakes, right?
i should buckle down, stop looking at this forum so much and go get ready for my next class. feel free to continue this thread.
later.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Feb 12, 2008 - 07:25pm PT
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I'm no historian, so I can't add much to the OP.
But check out Werner Herzog's movie "Aguirre, the Wrath of God".
It is about one Spanish explorer's venture upon South America's Orinoco river in search of the golden city of Eldorado.
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Feb 12, 2008 - 08:03pm PT
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Spanish for sure...here's a couple woodcuts of them butchering the locals...
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Feb 12, 2008 - 08:11pm PT
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Neil Young's song Cortez the Killer, one of my fav's.
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andy@climbingmoab
Big Wall climber
Park City, UT
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Feb 12, 2008 - 08:29pm PT
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No doubt the Spanish. Las Casas was too late - the city that bears his name(San Cristobol de las Casa) was known as the evil city(Ciudad Viciosa) for a long time before he came on the scene, and Chiapas is still a weird scene. Probably the worst of the whole bunch was Pedro de Alvarado down in central america - he made Cortez look like a kind man.
The mines and missions were pretty tame compared to just conquering territory and then making an example of people to stop uprisings preemptively. Check out the history of Leon Nicaragua and Antigua Guatemala. I'm in Leon right now and have driven through the whole area in the last month, and its something people still talk about though it happened 400-500 years ago.
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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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Feb 12, 2008 - 08:33pm PT
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I'm no expert but my sense is that the Spanish came, killed, conquered, then made peace (and often married) with the natives; maybe exploitive peace - but peace of a sorts. The English came with friendly gestures but brought their wives and in the long run the Anglo/white culture was at odds with the natives and slowly - creepingly - overran and destroyed the native culture and almost all the people.
Look at the percentage of the population that is native in Latin America (high) vs. North America (< 1%). Says something.
Sort of off-topic but I watched the movie Apocalypto last night. Interesting. A very -what?- exotic, re-creation of Mayan culture. And I think fairly accurate - but I'm no expert. Of course Mel Gibson through in his Catholic chauvinism stuff, the "Christian" Spanish saviors show up just in time to save the heathens. what ever, I still enjoyed the movie.
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