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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Sep 11, 2007 - 11:27am PT
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"or if need be, democratic law"
that's *exactly my point* jennie. last election, i seem to recall most of my mormon friends as being unsure who to vote for until the official recommendation came out.
Look me in the eye and tell me the church does not control the way the majority here will vote, directly or indirectly.
now vote on teaching sex ed in schools, and reigning in magcorp, kennicot, coal plants, etc...
-Tom
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Sep 11, 2007 - 12:34pm PT
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Tom,
Of course the LDS church has great influence on how its members vote. I don't believe anyone here doubts that. But haveing absolute control, no.
The church doesn't provide dispensations of specific candidates to vote for. It makes specific statements and advises on certain issues relative to their moral and social context, then lets members choose who to vote for. I've never seen a list put out by the LDS church of specific candidates or parties to vote for. Several years ago, when Idaho was voting over right-to-work, a private group put out brochures claiming that the church supported right-to-work. The brochures were made to look similar to LDS documents. However, the church had never taken a stand on the issue and the right-to-work brochures were shown to NOT having being put out by the church. My father was a union organizer who only voted for one Republican in his entire life---the myth that Mormons always vote republican is another NBC myth.
As far as sex education, the issue isn't should it be taught, but HOW it should be taught. When the LDS church ran high schools many years ago, sex education was part of the cirriculum. But now, with new age gurus wanting to inject gender confusion and spurious sexual behavior into the mix, sex education has become a controversial issue in Utah.
But Uncle Doug is right, Fattrad will lead us to the promised land. Pray it won't include sacking Jericho.
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Sep 11, 2007 - 12:36pm PT
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fatty i don't care if they are jewish, mormon, or space alien voodooists - i just want to see the money where the mouth is, and a state (and federal) legislature that actually cares for the people equally, not based on wealth or standing or special interests...
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Sep 11, 2007 - 01:25pm PT
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"The church doesn't provide dispensations of specific candidates to vote for. It makes specific statements and advises on certain issues relative to their moral and social context, then lets members choose who to vote for."
I'm gonna have to call BS on this one Jennie. In theory , maybe...in reality ? Can you honestly tell me the majority of the vote is not based on the recommendations of the church ? You're hiding behind semantics, and I don't buy it.
Not sure why I've got the black soul - I'm the one screaming the area is toxic and the legislature is doing nothing about it...you'd think that would count as a family value...
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John Moosie
climber
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Sep 11, 2007 - 01:32pm PT
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"I'm sorry you find such doctrine so bitter. Perhaps a cup of Jim Jones' New World Kool Aid would taste sweeter to you. If not, I hope your own personal enlightenment burns brightly enough and your wisdom is so wonderously developed that you can afford to continue in looking down on the sincere beliefs of others and refer to them as "other voodoo".
Perhaps I have misread this, but it sounds very ugly. If you find his bitterness so offensive, then why do you give out the same. You seem to be attached to others opinions of your beliefs. That allows the ego to rise and destroy you. Let it go Jennie, or you are no better then what you dislike.
And yes, I think the church could do more. In fact, I find it odd that the main church response put out by its media to Jon krakauers book is that it doesn't represent the church, as though their ego was pricked and they needed to defend themselves. They could have taken the opportunity to join Jon in denouncing these groups and their practices. Instead, they spend more effort in protecting themselves. What is there to protect if they are the Truth?
John
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John Moosie
climber
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Sep 11, 2007 - 01:34pm PT
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I was writing as you posted Tom. You wrote,
" I'm the one screaming the area is toxic and the legislature is doing nothing about it...you'd think that would count as a family value..."
You have the correct value.
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couchmaster
climber
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Sep 11, 2007 - 02:49pm PT
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Hey all: is it too late for a group hug? I generally like Mormons. Not when they are prothsing at me though.
BTW, when do we get to the earlier part of this story where the mob of thought police hung Joseph Smith (and others as well) while the Angel Moroni was not paying attention, or perhaps maybe on vacation or in the rest room - and was not on call to assist?
Wasn't there something about religion in that story as well? Maybe just incorrect beliefs?
Young girls? Scared ignorant people? Who knows?
___
Somebody knows sumptin, out with it before the Hollywood movie rendition of this sorid tale arrives please!
Please, do not think I'm bashing Mormons. Love most Mormons. Could this in fact be the first known case where someone was accidentally mistaken for a Jew during a screwed up American version of an attempt at an early pogrom?
Doesn't it just prove that ignorant stupid people suck, and they come in many flavors and colors. Abiet the white ones tend to predominate in this country. Different thing in Zimbabwe.
Bullshit like this is wrong. It is incumbent on us to learn ad grow from this kink of stupidity. Attacks against and killings of Mormons, or killing by Mormons. (pick any ideology or religon) It shows me that we have come far as a thinking peoples, and we have a distance to go yet so we don't annilate ourselves, but it's a hell of a lot better.
Personally, I think it's good to talk over this stuff, and some of us will use it as an opportunity to learn and grow.
Right Ron? Pat/bryceman/kallie? :-)
That's all I have to say.
XXX
Bill
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Sep 11, 2007 - 02:57pm PT
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Tom,
Call BS if you wish, but semantics or not, Im not hiding; and the LDS church DOES NOT name names of whom to cast votes. Hope your polluted air improves.
John Moosie,
I hope your perceptions improve with Tom's air. I was speaking metaphorically with regard to Jim Jones Kool Aid. You're mature enough to understand symbolism and shouldn't need hints and explanation before resorting to calling me ugly. I wish Healyje no ill but his arrogance deserved comment. Would you have turned the other cheek and begged him for another slap? If that's your interpretation of Christianity, good luck surviving Babylon.
It wasn't ego that was pricked when the LDS church criticized Krakauer's book. It was the fact that fallacy was peddled for historical truth. No, he was NOT completely wrong for going after the splinter sects. But the church was criticizing apostate groups long before Mr Krakauer was born. He came along and with his "storytelling" and attempted to smear things on individuals who weren't guilty and misrepresent the church. It deserved comment.
Kallie,
I appreciate your kind words. At least I'm not offending everyone here. But I'm not really deserving of your glowing compliments, Ive resorted to meaness on this forum in the past, a couple of times to very decent people.
Are you new on ST? I don't remember reading your posts before. I'm not presently living in Utah but plan to return. I'm always looking for climbing partners, perhaps we could climb together sometime.
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Matt
Trad climber
never ever pissing into the wind
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Sep 11, 2007 - 03:01pm PT
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wow this is such a serious thread!
(what can we do about that?)
this is probably entirely inappropriate of me to post here, BUT...
several years ago there was an article in the salt lake paper talking about how so many local salt lake virgin youths were ok w/ doing it in the pooper, because ya see, then they were still virgins, or so the prevailing high school logic went.
bunch a my dirtbag/skiier friends had a hearty laugh at that one...
"clean livin baby"
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Sep 11, 2007 - 03:03pm PT
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There are LDS democrats (many of them have been mayors of Salt Lake). But I get the feeling that they are pretty marginalized in terms of power at the state level.
The governor and lt. gov. are both GOP and LDS. GOP has a strong majority in the legislature, and I'd bet that better than 90% of them are LDS.
One could look at some southern states and probably say the same thing about GOP and Protestants. But there's a difference. In those states, some of the Protestants will be Southern Baptist, some Pentecostal, etc. Here it is pretty much all LDS. And the LDS church has a very hierarchical structure, similar to the Catholic church. Meaning the Prophet and apostles have a lot of power. Not the case in many Protestant traditions.
So you have a situation where the LDS church authorities can very easily influence public policy. I don't think all their influence is negative by any stretch of the imagination. But they certainly have alot of potential influence.
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John Moosie
climber
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Sep 11, 2007 - 03:43pm PT
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Jennie, I did not call you ugly. I said your statement is ugly. There is a difference. I still stand by my opinion. To metaphorically tell someone they might prefer poison, is mean.
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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 11, 2007 - 04:02pm PT
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Kallie, you might want to go back and see where the name calling began before getting your pants in a wad.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Sep 11, 2007 - 05:06pm PT
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John,
I was refering to the bitterness that poisons the soul not literally that he should drink physical poison. I guess it was a clumsy metaphor--if you didn't detect my meaning I suspect others won't either.
Kallie,
I've heard Pywiack Dome is an excellent route and sustained in the 5.9 range. We could climb at whatever level you like. Maybe you would like doing something in the Tetons. Just a thought if you're not busy. I'll send you an email when I return and we could talk about it. Thanks again for your kindness.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Sep 11, 2007 - 05:25pm PT
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Kallie, Oli spoke ill of me on this forum. He called me small minded, among other things. All true, perhaps, but it was an unprovoked attack. I forgave him.
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Sep 11, 2007 - 06:10pm PT
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"this is probably entirely inappropriate of me to post here, BUT..."
yes. no probably about it, imho...agree or not, we were talking to the ladies as well, g...
my parents' first wedding anniversary is sept 11 too...roman catholics gone mad - get a slow divorce for 30 years, remarry each other 4 years after finally getting it done...so today has always been a weird one for me...
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pdx_climber
Sport climber
portland,or
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Sep 11, 2007 - 06:29pm PT
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kallie = oli ....
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Sep 11, 2007 - 06:41pm PT
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hehe DMT - one of the few things i do think i got with my mother nature/father space is at least it's one of if not the oldest, and so much of it's been incorporated into other religions...
now if you will excuse me, i have some entrails to read before moving some stock...
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couchmaster
climber
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Sep 11, 2007 - 06:55pm PT
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Ha ha - outted!
pdx_climber says "
kallie = oli ...."
Nice call. Too funny.
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atchafalaya
climber
California
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Sep 11, 2007 - 07:25pm PT
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"Pat Ament's insights and reflections reveal a beautiful and tender soul. He is undoubtedly one of the great minds of climbing and a true poet." Kallie
At first I thought "nope". But that does sound like Pat.
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