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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 10, 2007 - 12:50am PT
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Well we're coming up on the 150th anniversary of the "American Cawnpore" (tuesday) and in the face of a new film (which I haven't seen yet), and a soon to be published "definitive" history endorsed by the LDS Church there has been a fair bit of buzz.
There has already been a memorial service attended by descendents of both the killers and the victims,..
Hey, wait a minute!
They killed everyone. How can there be victim "descendents"?
Well there were a few children adopted into the homes of their parents killers (ewww!!!!).
Back in those days Stokholm Syndrome was seen as a legitimate "family value".
Also there were members of the families in the Fancher Train that lived elsewhere. Indeed the leaders of the train had already established homesteads in the California Territory and were making a return trip.
So, anyway, the news reports of the recent service had the de rigeur pc handwringing about putting the past behind, but I wonder if the true lesson of this incident is any more apparent now than a century and a half ago.
I made a reference to Cawnpore, but I don't think that the main lesson here is the importance of dealing honorably with prisoners and keeping one's word.
To me the lesson is how escalating responses in a dispute or confrontation is a recipe for disaster.
Appropriate response is SO important.
This is a lesson made harder to learn in a culture that celebrates payback as a bitch, in a country that will invade another country because "They tried to kill my dad."
(cough cough) Like I said, I wonder if its any more apparent...
I also still wonder if any Paiutes participated in the massacre. The Denton book says no.
And what of Brigham Young's instructions?
Not surprisingly the new LDS history will claim in a most emphatic manner that he said let them pass.
Any thoughts?
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s. o.
Trad climber
academia
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Sep 10, 2007 - 01:18am PT
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Give it up if you want to find the truth. Both sides have their stories and motives that the "truth" does not exist in any literature about the event.
Personally, I think this is trolling for a reason to bash on the predominant culture in Utah and bitch about a burning cross that has nothing to do with said culture.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2007 - 01:27am PT
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If you're going to send me a bill for psychoanalysis s. o. use POB 3 Toquerville, 84774
I'd love to do something creative with it.
You wouldn't be LDS would you?
This incident is a part of both local AND American history, so it interests me. That I've spent much of my life among said descendents just makes it more so.
I gotta laugh at your touchy response since its been typical even before a young Tonopah newspaper reporter named Samuel Clemmons wrote about it.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2007 - 01:52am PT
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Kallie,
"pegged probably" would get the red pen from my 8th grade english teacher, but you are likewise welcome to send your bill.
Touchy touchy Mormons!
(See. This time I didn't even have to ask.)
Is it so difficult to deal with this thing?
I believe that I asked some legitimate questions about what can be gleaned from our perspective now and lessons learned.
Still I gotta shake my head with disbelief when I read your words;
"these same kinds of people, in essence, passing through had persecuted and killed Mormons"
Oh sure. THAT works.
"Hey! That black man over there is one of the same kind of people that mugged my cousin!"
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s. o.
Trad climber
academia
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Sep 10, 2007 - 01:57am PT
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"touchy response"
I believe I take a very objective viewpoint. The literature is either written by those who wish to attack a religion that they do not like and will look to do that with their own flavor of bias, and the other tries to piece out the events from accounts who wish to not be seen a "guilty" of anything. Either you are getting info from people who were not there and do not know what went on, or people who do not wish to been known as murders. I myself was interested but gave up, because little seemed concrete of what actually happened.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2007 - 02:01am PT
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LOL
You never answered the question. (Don't bother.)
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Sep 10, 2007 - 03:09am PT
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I'm still trying to deal with the One-Hundred Years War. Maybe I need therapy.
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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 10, 2007 - 03:13am PT
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"Maybe I need therapy. "
Naw. You just need more fiber in your diet. Try Metamucil.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2007 - 03:27am PT
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It seems to me that somebody named "Woody" would be the LAST person to use viagra.
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Riotch
Trad climber
Kayenta, Arizona
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Sep 10, 2007 - 08:01am PT
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Patience, the mormon church hasn't had 2000 years to sanitize and embelish its history, like the christians have.
Could this be a PR scheme, designed to counteract all the bad press generated by those pesky polygamists?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 10, 2007 - 09:02am PT
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As much as I am a history buff I also feel that the past is the past. Unless you want to give the whole mess back to the native americans finger pointing about old masacres does little good. Interesting stuff from a historicle point of view as long as you don't try to tag any kind of present day legislation on to it. My parents parents all came over from europe in the 1920's so it kind of ticks me off when blacks or native americans point fingers at me and say " look what you did to us" I didn't do shit! I wasen't even concived untill 1961 fer christ sake..........
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2007 - 09:50am PT
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Did anybody even READ what I wrote?
The reason we study history is to learn its lessons, but it seems most people approach this subject with their minds already decided one way or the other.
Yes the historical record is biased between denial and condemnation, but that is hardly a unique situation, and historians have dealt effectively with similar quandries.
So far nobody has even attempted to answer the questions I posed, although their aggendas are seemingly apparent (including accusing me of the same).
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FeelioBabar
climber
Sneaking up behind you...
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Sep 10, 2007 - 10:08am PT
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"Patience, the mormon church hasn't had 2000 years to sanitize and embelish its history, like the christians have."
Bingo! get that man a prize.
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seamus mcshane
climber
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Sep 10, 2007 - 10:11am PT
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Ron, as the saying goes "Past is Prologue".
Both sides were right and both were wrong.
No lessons learned from this incident.
We are doomed to repeat our history, death in the name of religion.
This is the nature of man.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2007 - 10:11am PT
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All the more reason to examine now after only 150 years, Babar.
The trouble with this "man has always been so foolish" school of thought is that with overpopulation and modern weapons the consequences become infinitely more dire.
Perhaps its time the human race matured a bit.
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Donny... the OHHH!- Riginal
Sport climber
the Low Velocity Zone
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Sep 10, 2007 - 10:40am PT
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I hope everyone is aware of the Mormons intention to close the Fisher Towers to climbing. Apparently it was and is still a very sacred and holy Morman ceremonial place. I was accosted there a few years back for collecting Mormon arrowheads..by an angy group speaking in their native tongue so I couldn't even understand them. They threw rocks at me, then started lining out wonderfully engineered irrigation ditches.
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Erik
Ice climber
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Sep 10, 2007 - 11:04am PT
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Jon Krakauer just wrote a book on the Mormons, which is apparently a very good read. Having just read Christopher Hitchens (God is Not Great -- How Religion Poisons Everything) and Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion), both of which have scathing words in particular for Moronism (oops, Mormonism), I look forward to Krakauer's treatment of what is probably the most blatanly man-made religion in the world.
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TwistedCrank
climber
The banks of reality
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Sep 10, 2007 - 11:10am PT
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...probably the most blatanly man-made religion in the world.
Isn't all religion man-made?
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Sep 10, 2007 - 11:16am PT
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probably the most blatanly man-made religion in the world.
I would have to say that Scientology takes that tag except to me Scientology is not a religion, just a cult.
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Sep 10, 2007 - 11:27am PT
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religion teaches us to honor the miracle of existence
treasure and cherish the wonder and magic of it all
and kill anyone that uses different names for it than our tribe
i don't get it
never have
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