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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 12, 2007 - 09:26pm PT
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Uh, hitler...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 12, 2007 - 09:30pm PT
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No, but I do like to read about people like that. I like to try to get in their heads...hard sometimes, fuc5ing psychos.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 12, 2007 - 09:34pm PT
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I just started the book, I'll keep you posted, Crowley!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 12, 2007 - 09:38pm PT
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You know me better than that...I'll be back
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 13, 2007 - 04:52pm PT
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Yon's latest dispatch.
False advertising is afoot. I write these words from Indonesia, soaking wet, having just returned from photographing rice paddies in a pouring rain, wearing a Florida Gators shirt. That means there is a green alligator on my chest. While supporting my team, my shirt perpetuates the myth that alligators are green, when in fact they are black when wet, gray when dry.The mantra that “there is no political progress in Iraq” is rapidly becoming the “surge” equivalent of a green alligator: when enough people repeat something that sounds plausible, but also happens to be false, it becomes accepted as fact. The more often it is repeated—and the larger the number of people repeating it—the harder it is to convince anyone of the truth: alligators are not green, and Iraqis are making plenty of political progress.
There may be little progress on political goals crafted in America, to meet American concerns, by politicians who have a cushion of 200 years of democracy. Washington might as well be on the moon. Iraqis don’t respond well to rules imposed from outside their acknowledged authorities, though I have many times seen Iraqi Police and Army of all ranks responding very well to American Marines and soldiers who they have come to respect, and in many cases actually admire and try to emulate. Our military has increasing moral authority in Iraq, but the same cannot be said for our government at home. In fact, it’s in moral deficit because many Iraqis are increasingly frightened we will abandon them to genocide. The Iraqis I speak with couldn’t care less what is said from Washington but large numbers of them pay close attention to what some Marine Gunny says, or what American battalion commanders all over Iraq say. Some of our commanders could probably run for local offices in Iraq, and win. To say there has been no political progress in Iraq in 2007 is patently absurd, completely wrong and dangerously dismissive of the significant changes and improvements happening all across Iraq. Whether or not Americans are seeing it on the nightly news or reading it in their local papers, Iraqis are actively writing their children’s history.
The rest of the story with photos and links.
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/three-marks-on-the-horizon.htm
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Matt
Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
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Aug 13, 2007 - 06:16pm PT
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hey TGT-
they are right, and we ARE going to abandom them!
(to genocide, or whatever their own self determined fate might become)
it may be next year, it may be 10 years from now, but it will happen either way. anyone who thinks "political progress" in iraq is going to somehow prevent that is simply re-labeling and regurgitating the original neocon/PNAC line, aka: 'give them democracy and a free market and they will forget thousands of yeas of feuds and grudges and everything will be fine' argument.
why are you too obtuse to recognize this blatant and obvious propoganda as what it is? do you think the author has to label it propoganda for it to be recognized? so damn gung-ho that you cannot even consider the possibility... too funny.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 13, 2007 - 08:27pm PT
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Still think alligators are green, Huh!
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Matt
Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
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Aug 13, 2007 - 09:08pm PT
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has nothing to do w/ reptiles, dry or wet, it's more like rooting fr the gators no matter what, since you went to school there- makes you blind to recruiting scandals, poor coaching, and the fact that your not in the mix in the SEC this year (granted they are champs in 2 sports, but they are not fighting in iraq, so there really is no point to the analogy...)
look at the guys 3 points of improvement:
1. Iraqis are uniting across sectarian lines to drive al Qaeda in all its disguises out of Iraq, and they are empowered by the success they are having, each one creating a ripple effect of active citizenship.
only the bush administration says AQ is the bad guy, everyone else (including several quotes from active officers in theater) say it's militias and sectarian conflict, and "AQ" is a small actor (and btw, how very convenient for gW et.al. that these jokers in iraq decided to call themselves 'AQ in mesepotamia', no? especially after all of the administration's efforts to link iraq and 9/11, hmmmm).
2. The Iraqi Army is much more capable now than they were in 2005. They are not ready to go it alone, but if we keep working, that day will come soon.
never mind that we can train all the iraqis we want to, and the likelyhood is that we are simply arming and training the current and future members of the various sectarian militias. and how long have 'they' been talking about the progress in training iraqi security forces? whatever, only the faithful will continue to buy that same old sorry story of rumsfeld's invention, about how we can stand down when the iraqis stand up.
(did someone say wolf? again? really? what do they think, we're stupid?)
3. General Petraeus is running the show. Petraeus may well prove to be to counterinsurgency warfare what Patton was to tank battles with Rommel, or what Churchill was to the Nazis.
and of course, rah-rah general david p.- sound familiar? it should, that's all gW ever says about iraq these days! this hero of yours makes the general a full 1/3 of his argument, yet he in no way substantiates or supports these claims about the future perceived greatness of 'david' (as gW calls him). all he is doing here is supporting what the least popular president in history is telling us about his personal failed war project, but there is absolutely no reason to believe this line, as everything they have told us to date has been demonstrably false.
patreus himself says that insurgencies take an average of 9 or 10 years to defeat (if they are defeated, a big if), but your hero reporter fails to explain how we are supposed to keep 150K troops in iraq for 10 more years! so they cannot even pretend they will be able to follow their own designated expert's plan!
in fact, this guy even repeats the now popular republican line that it's the fault of the american people if we loose in iraq, because we are not steadfast in our support of this failed war.
frankly this is incredibly transparent. the only reason it appeals to you is that he makes you feel like a tough military guy when you read his stuff.
all they are trying to do is kick the can down the road, keep the war going until 08 so they can perpetually blame sissy-girl pansy democrats for losing the war. what a joke.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 13, 2007 - 09:32pm PT
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Well TGT, Matt posted his refutation in his own words, not with a cut and paste.
How about telling us your version of how things could reasonably expect to play out in Iraq and how much that would likely cost us in lives and money?
Peace
karl
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 13, 2007 - 11:02pm PT
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Read this book first
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385720386
to understand the inevitability of the outcome.
And then this one
http://www.amazon.com/Blueprint-Action-Future-Worth-Creating/dp/0399153128
To understand the present strategy.
I do find the Barnett approach almost as discomforting as the old line "realist" (both parties)approach to policy in its amorality. But Machiavelli and Sun Su make me uncomfortable also. Although all are in most cases correct and more than a bit on the egocentric side.
Both of these guys have no illusions as to what alligators really look like.
By the way Barnett is a darling of Kerry and other assorted Dems so don't for a minute believe that anything other than a disasterous turn to a Ron Paul, John Birch society form of isolationism will change any thing in the long run. His vision of the future has buy in from both sides of the isle. The big argument is how to get there with the minimum body count.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2007 - 12:18pm PT
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TGT, that first book you posted looks like it'd be a good read. Especially because everything I've read from the author is spot-on accurate. I'll have to pick that one up.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2007 - 12:52pm PT
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conservative, yes, neocon? I don't think so.
It's pretty hard to dispute his points when he backs them up with historical examples. He does speculate quite a bit, but I think he's fully qualified to do so based on his background.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2007 - 01:12pm PT
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Well, here is his defense of Rumsfeld from 2004. Let's let people make up their own minds...it's kind of a long read.
http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson122304.html
Edit: pal?...you're starting to sound like Matt, pal.
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dirtbag
climber
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Aug 14, 2007 - 01:18pm PT
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Well, now it's nearly 3 years later and the War--Rummy's War and Bush's War--is going very badly.
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dirtbag
climber
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Aug 14, 2007 - 01:25pm PT
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This is classic:
"Donald Rumsfeld is no Les Aspin or William Cohen, but a rare sort of secretary of the caliber of George Marshall."
Did Marshall threaten to fire his generals if they spoke to him privately about the difficulties US forces would face during the occupation?
Rummy did. And surprise surprise, the occupation has turned out to be the crux of the war.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2007 - 01:41pm PT
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Anybody remember who was asked to leave (fired) for his claimed mishandling of Korea?
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Matt
Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
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Aug 14, 2007 - 01:53pm PT
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rummy was all the way responsible for the light force, that which did not secure ANYTHING but the oil ministry and paved the way for the so-called insurgency (are they dead-enders or al queda terrorists? seems the label they wear is highly dependent on the direction the wind is blowing in DC, hmmm...)
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dirtbag
climber
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Aug 14, 2007 - 01:54pm PT
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Bluering, threatening to fire generals because they dared to consider the planning requirements of occupied Iraq is indefensibly reckless. I see no parallels with the firing of MacArthur.
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