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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 7, 2007 - 11:57am PT
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http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/bread-and-a-circus-part-ii-of-ii.htm
This guy is former special-ops and now a reporter embedded with U.S. troops. He gets alot more access than most because of his military background. He's now a reporter and is obviously a little biased, but his reportering is awesome. Check out the link.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Excellent post.
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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Excellent stuff. Kind of reminds me of the book Generation Kill. Telling it like it is.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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I've read that guy's blog before (one of the few I have read). He certainly is qualified from a military point of view to comment on the situation. But does he have an agenda Bluering?
It seems that he does, but then I suppose, who doesn't.
At the risk of having my head bitten off by some of you, perhaps reading the likes of him as well as Robert Fisk (gasp) might give a more, shall we say balanced, point of view of the Middle East quagmire.
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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I didn't read his entire blog but it seemed to me he was not editorializing too much. In the blog entry that is linked I got the sense that he fully realizes what a f--k show it is over there. He even noted how the war has backfired.
I agree with his assessment that due to the waning American civilian interest in the war big media is scaling back coverage. It's admirable that he is carrying out his mission without corporate media support.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 7, 2007 - 02:47pm PT
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Patrick, of course he has an agenda. He's a retired Green Beret who wants people to understand what the military is trying to do there, and also what they have to deal with.
As he states, he has no affiliation to MSM outlets. He gives real stories (and pics/movies to back it up) that you'd never hear told by Fox, CNN, or anybody else in the media.
I understand your skepticism, just disagree with it.
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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
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Am I a Neo-Con because I liked that link?
Hmmmm.......
Oh well!
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Standing Strong
Trad climber
forever's gonna start tonight
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"I agree with his assessment that due to the waning American civilian interest in the war big media is scaling back coverage. It's admirable that he is carrying out his mission without corporate media support."
also agree. and i was really surprised to hear on npr's "talk of the nation" show today that bagdad is on its EIGTH day without water and is lucky to have an hour or two of electricity a day. i didn't see any of that mentioned in the sac bee this morning.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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who wrote the "Independent" Iraq report?
The Great Eskimo Tax Scam holds the "answer"...
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Bluering, I hear where you are coming from, but I think my skepticism is well founded, not of this guy necessarily, but of anyone nowadays who think we should stay the course in Iraq.
It was a huge mistake to go in there in the first place and it will be a huge mistake to stay. Does anybody really think that we have made the situation better by attacking Iraq? And we did attack the country, there is no other word.
Does anybody think that Bush, Cheney and Co really cared about Saddam’s brutality? About democracy for the Iraqi people? Bullsh*t, and train cars loads of it.
There must have been better ways to take care of Saddam. All we have done is turned a secular country, albeit one ruled by a despot (which the US supported), into a huge mess.
I could go on but I think that I do not need to in order to make the point. Bush, Cheney and Co f*cked up big time (big big time). But am I surprised by this?
Hell no. It was to be expected.
But I suspect that you, Wootles and others realise this. I don’t know if any of you voted for Bush in 2000 or 2004, but if you did and you could vote again in those elections, would you now vote for him? Hindsight, I suppose.
Now for Iran, eh.
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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Patrick, Check my posts in other political threads and tell me if you think I voted for Bush or any republican for any office.
I'm going to go back and read Mr. Yon's blog again but the first time through I didn't see where he said we should stay the course. I did see where he stated that the war had backfired.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Those blogs are a valuable resource for sure.
On the other hand, everybody's got a bias. Being there on the the ground gives you a good view but it's limited to where you're at and who you are with.
I live in Yosemite. I see things that folks reading about Yosemite don't see, and yet I find out a lot of things about Yosemite from the news and supertopo that I'd never know from walking around or even talking with the neighbors.
Iraq is a nightmare and is going to be a nightmare until things change a great deal. Partition, dictatorship combined with oppression, or genecide, that's what it will take to calm that place down. I'd hate to be a part of any of that.
Of course the prize is sitting on those oil reserves and the oil crunch is coming. Invading Iraq was a strategic decision that will be spoiled if we pull out. This sort of strategy makes sense if you don't mind killing others and your own children for the sake a long term power play for money and lifestyle. I'm not down for it.
Folks like to say there is evidence the surge is working but we're still dying like crazy over there and will be as long as the surge continues. They know we can't keep the numbers up so they keep their heads down until we're gone. They've a number of years to train Iraqis to take over and accomplished very little in that regard. Care to guess how long it will take.
It doesn't matter because those trained Iraqis are going to fight for their clan and sect and not the general welfare of the country. A high percentage of the weapons we've sent em have dissappeared already
No matter what Michael says, the place is hell, not getting better, or there would be results after 4 years. As it is, they pumped more oil under sanctions and Saddam, and had more reliable electricity and water, felt safer, and the place was secular with no more Al Queda than the US.
Time's up. Leaving that place will be cruel but so will staying. Non-invaders should do the peacekeeping
Peace
Karl
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dirtbag
climber
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Good post Karl! It will be hell when we leave but it is clear that staying is hell too.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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As far as Iraq and the US invasion/liberation goes, what's the military word for it?
Oh yes, a gigantic clusterf*ck.
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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"On the other hand, everybody's got a bias. Being there on the the ground gives you a good view but it's limited to where you're at and who you are with."
Absolutely. This guy is one man, one source. Given his location he certainly can not see the big picture. But he is a set of eyes and ears on the front line, which, is largely and conspicuously not covered by the lame stream media.
I'm sure many of our troops are doing many good deeds and feel they are making a difference. But it's kind of like tossing one little starfish back in the ocean while there's millions more still on the beach.
edit: Just want to add that I opposed the war all along, oppose it now, and oppose staying. It's a friggin' mess, a huge friggin' mess and Bush and company should hang for it. And I don't give a crap what 'our enemies would think' of that. I place the entire blame of this whole freak show mess on the glutinous US culture and the corporations that promote it. It's not our 'God given right' to consume the entire planet.
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dirtbag
climber
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How does making them hate western values moderate them? They are not listening to us and they will not listen to us as long as we are occupying their country. They will only resent us more. It isn't working.
What you are talking about isn't moderation.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 8, 2007 - 12:25pm PT
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Pat, I don't think anybody, including Michael Yon, is saying that it was not a clusterf*ck. The point is, how do we get some sort of stability and general happiness amongst the general population there. Get them more focused on living their lives than killing each other in spite. I'd say once they have adequate food, jobs, and other basic living resources they'll calm down somewhat.
On a side note, one of the things I like about Yon's reporting is the interaction with field commanders. It gives you chance to hear candid remarks from lieutenants and lieutenant-colonels and how they conduct basic field operations and interact with people on the ground. That, as opposed to press releases and politically correct statements from military spokespeople.
For example when the LTC says about 'Tonto', "I can't believe I almost shot this guy in the chest yesterday".
Karl and Patrick, I mostly concur with you. My sentiments are that, yes, we fu*k things up pretty badly but we need to make things better for many different reasons. The biggest being that it is our obligation now.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I understand the idea Bluering but we just can't do it.
It's like if somebody lost their mind with jealosy over his wife's affair and went and killed the father of 3 kids in front of them and his wife.
They lose their mind and sure, he can tell himself, I better stay right here and keep this family under control until they calm down and get back to normal. (and so they can't call the cops) I better tie em down first cause they're so upset.
Doesn't work. We invaded. They are busy fighting us until we leave. It would be the same if somebody invaded us
Peace
Karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 8, 2007 - 01:18pm PT
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So, if we leave the fighting/violence there will stop?
How does that explain them blowing up recruits trying to get jobs in the army/police force?
Blowing up mosques?
Blowing up crowded markets?
Blowing up/sabotaging energy resources?
Pulling busloads of people over and executing them because they're not the correct religion?
Geez, they is going to condescend into another one of these threads...I knew it.
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dirtbag
climber
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Bluering, staying there isn't bringing peace either.
I came around to this idea about 6 months ago. I understand what you are saying. Even though I opposed the war I still believed we owed it to the Iraqi people to at least try to bring order to their lives, and received a fair amount of criticism for it for sticking to that idea for so long.
No longer. It's clear that what we have there won't bring order to that mess. Fatty's right that perhaps half a million troops might've made a difference, but that won't happen and it might be too late anyway.
Time to stop the slaughter of US troops and stop them from hating us even more. We at least need to scale back to training and support, then withdrawl. Our combat mission is over.
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