Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
Joe wrote:
> Drill bit binds/breaks in old hole. Now what?
You extract it (with needle nose pliers if necessary), put on the new bit and finish the hole, no big deal. I have never had a SDS bit break off when widening a 1/4" hole, or when drilling a new hole. I have had the carbide insert on the tip chip off when widening a 1/4" hole once. No big deal, I finished the hole with it anyway.
> You drill new holes to get the best quality new bolts (otherwise, why do it at all) and leave the job of plucking the old ones and filling the holes for later on rap.
That's pretty lame rebolting style, if you are adding new holes and changing bolt locations. Have you done it this way yourself? The enlarged holes are already best quality.
> You have to hand drill it anyway, so it don't matter if you're hanging on old gear or on a rap line. Except that rapping down it to restore it would be a hypocritical cop-out.
Using your own arguments, you should not be resorting to aid to place the bolts, otherwise you are having a "hypocritical cop-out" - Kevin and Ron didn't use aid to place the bolts on the FA.
This idea of replacing on lead for style reasons is a bit absurd. Go ahead if you want to, though. As Dennis Erik and I used to joke, "The only ethical bolt chopping is done on lead!" I think replacing on lead fits into the same category [kinda pointless].
|
|
G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
|
|
Joe is kind of known for being a bit contrary. I am not sure if he is even serious in this discussion. However, if he is, I am pretty sure he is in a small minority of climbers in his thinking here.
|
|
caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
|
|
Well, Joe's posts certainly are a bit confrontational, but I think he does make some good points. I like hearing his point of view as well.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Hey man
Just put the f'ckin bolts in the rock any way you can on this thing and fix it.
Like WTF with all these dumb ass arguments. Just fix it!
Man, reading all this bullshit is nuts .....
|
|
Kevster
Trad climber
Evergreen, CO
|
|
Your ethic is very proud Mr. Hedge, but I think it's effect is more damaging to the rock. So would the old bolts have to be pulled on lead as well?
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
That's just dumb Joe. Replacing old bolts in the same hole usually requires doing the rebolting on rappel. Even when we have to lead routes to replace them, usually the leader clips the mank and replaces bad bolts at the belay, then the follower replaces the pro bolts. When the leader needs to replace a pro bolt on the lead, you usually have to drill a new hole (unless the stance is REALLY good, or the original bolt fell out already). So you'd advocate messing up the replacement of bolts just to do the replacement on the lead? That makes no sense at all.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
Well, Joe, look at the bright side. At least the anchors, few as they may be, will all be sound. They may be infrequent, placed in inconvenient spots, and hard to see from below. But climbers will have the knowledge that they're there, and reliable, although it's still a serious route.
Those who did the first ascent (climbers who are still active, and well respected in the community) apparently consent to replacement of the anchors as discussed - even though it would slightly dilute the experience the route offers. They don't mind that it would be done en rappel - re-placing fixed anchors is often done in that manner, and few seem to quibble with it.
It's pretty clear that both the first ascenders and many others would not abide retro-bolting of the route. It simply won't be tolerated. Maybe bring the subject up again in five or ten or twenty years, and see what people think then. In the meantime, there are lots of routes you can do that offer similar albeit not identical challenges, but suit your preferences for protection.
Thanks again for stimulating an important and rather nuanced debate.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
Kevin,
I view the epoxy as an option for being necessary only if the pinbolt can't be reasonably removed once the final desired throughbolt hole position is arrived at. I much prefer the mechanical option that drills a 1/2" X 41/2" hole in the proper location, sets the dropin and sleeve at proper depth and then throughbolts with a 3/8" X 4" stainless bolt and threadlock compound. I could easily substitute a machine bolt shape for the capscrew to allow more breakaway torque, it just needs lots of threaded length. I liked the look of the capscrew since it resembles a buttonhead. No big detail and I really don't think anyone will need to mess with this setup for a very long time. I did source a perfect Simpson two part, tip mixing, epoxy setup that fits in the palm of your hand and is perfect for this situation.
It strikes me that what we are proposing here threatens the sanitation committee mindset. Preservation and bolt sanitization are diametrically opposed with repect to underlying values and vision of the future. That is why the metalheads are so desperate and foolish in their reasoning and arguments. The house of cards collapses when the base values fail to gain traction. Sanitized climbing is just plain dull fare. The future very much needs the past at the moment.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
jghedge said: "All I'm hearing are weak excuses for rap bolting from the exact same guys who claim it is so important to preserve the ground-up ethic and tradition."
Then you will fix it (Space babble) on the lead ground up. No more talking. Get the f'ck up there and do it NOW!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
Yes, Werner Brawn, that's it. Perhaps his should be the first Stonemasters Action Figure to be released along with his foil, the multiarmed, rotohammer wielding Punkazfuul, who, of course, drills everything into submission! They're gonna sell like hotcakes, I just know it.
|
|
Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
|
|
I just wanted to point out what a bummer it is that a route that sounds as fantastic as Space Babble will likely never be doable by most climbers including me; not because of technical difficulty (well, who knows, maybe also because of technical difficulty) but because it is too dangerous, even after the hardware is replaced. I am not making an inflammatory post, I would never advocate adding bolts to this route or others like it (Bachar-Yerian comes to mind). I absolutely see the value in preserving some of the most rad and inspired onsights that have ever been done. There is the argument that why should a route remain dangerous for eternity simply because there were climbers on the first ascent willing to take risks beyond what most consider acceptable. But in this day and age, as most classic and reasonably accessable routes have been done already, I believe that the few routes that have been preserved in the original ground up rad ethic should most definitely be kept that way. If not, the few climbers so good as to be able to climb and appreciate this sort of route would be left with...nothing. The last thing I would ever want to do is deprive some of the most gifted climbers in the world of this sort of route. I just wanted to moan a bit, the thought of this beautiful route that virtually none of us will ever get to lead! With some rap bolts in key locations (like at the runnout 5.10c mantle), it would RULE! Can't we somehow copy the cliff and also have a better protected version? For you hardware masterminds, how about some remote controlled bolts that could be added, but turned on or off before starting the route! Ah, just rambling, I really do love and appreciate the fact that someone will at least be replacing the belays so I can someday toprope the route. I would just be so psyched to lead it, but that ain't gonna happen in this lifetime...
|
|
Kevster
Trad climber
Evergreen, CO
|
|
|
Dec 10, 2006 - 12:03am PT
|
Bravo Mr. Hedge,
I like your ethic and I agree that it would be the best style to replace it on lead. Were only talking about what a dozen holes to fill on a 600 ft face. Wish I lived in easy commuting distance from the Valley to give it a go.
Someone else has to sack up and go for it ground up!
(Edit: Hummerchime never say never! Maybe it will become a headpoint masterpiece with good anchors...Anyone seen any 1/4" SS Buttonheads?)
|
|
looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
|
|
|
Dec 10, 2006 - 12:25am PT
|
...Space Babble will likely never be doable by most climbers including me; not because of technical difficulty (well, who knows, maybe also because of technical difficulty) but because it is too dangerous...
This is pure BS (not SB). As outlined in the beginning of the thread, any reasonably motivated climber could lead this route. Most climbers have put a lot of effort into developing physical strength -- leading a 5.12 sport route is hardly noteworthy anymore (even for some of us pentagenerians).
In the mean time, mental strength and control has atrophied, or worse, never been developed. That is why routes like SB are perceived to be "death routes."
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Dec 10, 2006 - 12:50am PT
|
Hummer wrote "...Space Babble will likely never be doable by most climbers including me; not because of technical difficulty (well, who knows, maybe also because of technical difficulty) but because it is too dangerous..."
Then Randy wrote "This is pure BS (not SB). As outlined in the beginning of the thread, any reasonably motivated climber could lead this route.///"
Well Randy, I think it IS true the most climbers can't afford to risk a fall 120 feet led-out on slab. Between having families and friends and regular lives, it really is a level of sticking your neck out that's reserved for the very few. It hard to argue that given that it's a fine route that doesn't get done.
That doesn't mean it should be sanitized and the top rope option it there for folks, but it's not BS to say that most climbers can/should be able to do there.
Peace
karl
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
|
|
|
Dec 10, 2006 - 01:01am PT
|
Joe wrote: ". . . people will just start rap bolting new routes on Middle. Since it obviously can't be done correctly on the lead."
Who says it can't, and hasn't been, "done correctly?" Who had decided this and on what criteria?
JL
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Dec 10, 2006 - 01:46am PT
|
That's right Largo, It WAS done correctly. There ain't no book on this sh#t. It's done from the heart and soul. Go ahead, make it safe, go ahead. You'll just kill yourself in the process. You'll be a walking corpse that you already are.
They did it that way to live!
Go ahead kill everything. Sanitize it.
Dead man walking ..........
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Dec 10, 2006 - 02:18am PT
|
route maintenance is simply high angle construciton work. it aint climbing. must be some good stuff joe is smokin though...
Ironically, the Flatiron Bolt Committee will not allow ground up, on sight routes, because they anticipate bolts will be in the wrong place. On lower angle to steep angle slabs, I say that placement selection error is less likely to occur than it is on steeper terrain.
The FBC can sit on their bosch bit and spin.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Dec 10, 2006 - 03:06am PT
|
Kevin wrote
"I think what Randy is saying Karl, is that a good climber that trains himself to control fear and relax on moves well below his limit, in spite of the possibility of a long fall, should be able to do the route. The 120ft fall you mention couldn't happen on the 5.10 climbing on the route (maybe a 50 footer) and the 5.11 is actually pretty well protected, provided of course the bolts/pins hold. The 5.8/5.9 stuff you just don't fall on. "
I was talking about 120 foot lead-out on only 5.9. That equals nearly a 260-300 fall. If Dereck Hershey can die on 5.9 in Yosemite, there is no guarantee for anyone, no matter how good. A rock can hit you on middle, you could get a cramp. Choose a bad move.
Which is just to say, a regular climber can't do this route. Some pretty bad ass guys on this thread including you say they're not up for it at the time.
So I think it's more fair to say that a talented climber who can afford to make a calculated but actual risk of his life could do this route. If the climber isn't talented or is unwilling to risk all, he has no business on this route.
I just think that's the way it is
peace
karl
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Dec 10, 2006 - 01:03pm PT
|
"Better we raise ourselves than lower the climbs." RR
Space Babble is a route for people that have mastered face climbing on Middle Rock. Technical difficulty is secondary to adventure and discovery. You simply have the right stuff to climb without protection on 5.10 or stay off the route. "The ultimate climbs are not democratic" wrote YC & DR. This is an ultimate climb in my experience.
"Where protection is not assured by a usable cracks long unprotected runouts sometimes result, and the climber of committment must be prepared to accept the risks and alternatives which are only too well defined. Personal qualities - judgement, concentration , boldness - the ordeal by fire, take precedence, as they should, over mere hardware." YC & DR
"We believe the only way to ensure the climbing experience for ourselves and future generations is to preserve (1) the vertical wilderness, and (2) the adventure inherent in the experience. Really, the only insurance to guarantee this adventure and the safest insurance to maintain it is the excercise of moral restraint and individual resposibility." YC & TF
jghedge - stop leaning on points of ethics and style that you clearly do not grasp with any depth or clarity. To try to twist these positions around to attempt to support your morally and ethically bankrupt position swiftly makes a fool out of you when you don't really support them in the first place. In case you haven't noticed, most of us old guard are very clear in our positions, opinions and postings. You metalheads are grasping at straws and drowning in a cesspool of blatant, snivelling self-interest.
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
|
Dec 10, 2006 - 01:13pm PT
|
Joe, what is your opinion of You Asked For It in Tuolumne?
The bolt replacement was done ground-up, leader climbing with a replacement kit, replacing one bolt at each belay, the pro bolts and the second anchor bolt replaced by a follower.
I bet you still want to retrobolt it, and you're just blowing smoke with your weird take on replacement style.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!