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James
climber
A tent in the redwoods
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I'd say, "I'd like to know too."
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Here is a topo I drew right after we did the route shortly after it was put up by Ron and Kevin. Kevin's suggestions about how to prepare for the route are spot on -- not much to add.
One thing I will note (even the topo notes some of this), the fixed gear was pretty shitty (even right after it was placed). Bolts were not fully drilled, fixed pins (KBs an Bugaboos), were driven into flared spots and the offset prevented them from being fully in or solid. Unless already done, all the fixed gear after pitch 1 sould be replaced. Note the shitty bolt belay (at top of pitch 2) and the two pins at the belay for pitch 3 were very sketchy too. We didn't trust any of the fixed gear.
The second pitch was probably the scariest (at least for me), the 5.10 "mantel" was very funky and the type of move you would only be "comfortable" doing (seemed more like 20+ feet out) if you had done a lot of Middle climbing.
One of the best quality routes I've done on Middle. Still pretty vivid experience after 30 years.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Kevin's post is the word on this topic.
My only point of disagreement might be to suggest starting with the better protected face routes on the North Apron before venturing onto the easier run-out ones. You really have to get used to the stone, moves and route-finding. Do Stoners before paradise lost, at least the first four. Stoners has good bolts and better rock.
Space Babble is pure death but hopefully will be restored before you launch. If the anchors have been replaced but if it's not equiped with fixed pins, Grossman pin-bolts, or a community decision to replace pin protection points with bolts, you'll have to know how to use pins or climb bolder than the Fa.
In that case you could consider headpointing it by rapping in from pitch 5 of Kor Beck and TRing it on the way down. That's less adventure but if you're not Kauk/Kevin in your skills, you have to factor a bit of survival into the equation. If it seems you'd survive after the dry run, have at it. That's the way the bold brits go for the death routes.
Peace
Karl
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Space Babble is now on my to-do list. I love climbing on Middle.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Kevin, I think that in general folks who have looked at Space Babble and discussed it on ST--Karl in particular--believe that all the original protection needs to be replaced--the original stuff would not hold. I think that you are saying the same thing.
Tell us about the name. Why ‘Space Babble?’
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Randy, thanks for posting your topo, showing the fixed pin locations. It's exactly what is needed for restoring the fixed pro on the route. I'd be psyched to rap down it (again) and replace all the bolts - that would be fairly easy to do in one day (hopefully when it's a bit warmer). [Edit: Bruce Hildenbrand already volunteered to team up so there's no reason the simple bolt replacement part of the job can't be done before April.]
Replacing the former fixed pins on the first pitch is more complicated, so I think the plan for that would be to leave a fixed rope on the first pitch and take a second day to figure that out. I'm open to whatever Kevin and Ron suggest for replacing the pins. If it was up to me, I would first look carefully at the placements to see if modern tiny cams would fit, but since Kevin and Randy have described KBs and LAs that seems unlikely. Steve G's idea of using bolted pitons is interesting. [Edit: Steve proposes manufacturing his own SS replica pitons, to be bolted into place so they don't fall out, discussion on the "Welcome to Kevin Worrall" thread at http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=252358&tn=160 ].
My choice would be the Petzl Coeur SS hangers which have a pretty small visual footprint. They could be placed in the same spots where the original fixed piton eyes were. And I would use the Powers/Rawl 3/8" x 2.25" SS "five-piece" bolts. At belay stations there would be SS rings.
I rapped down this route and toproped most of it in 1995.
http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/rep/957yjohn.txt
I remember the bolts and pins at some belays sticking far out, as Randy mentioned. We didn't die rapping from them. But I'm pretty light. I presume Kevin and Ron had to rush a bit to get up the route, hence a few too-shallow holes. Easy to fix now.
As for bolt replacement on other Middle Cathedral routes, there is a fairly good list at:
http://www.safeclimbing.org/areas/california/yosemitefree.htm
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Kevin wrote
"Karl I've heard the "pure death" description from you before. I'm wondering exactly where you mean that death is an element on the route."
Pure death because some belays aren't even safe to rappel on. Maybe since we're talking about these days. something will happen but until the route is repaired, the road to Space Babble is road to nowhere
Peace
Karl
PS Grossman is talking about using stainless steel pin-bolts See the welcome to Kevin thread
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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With all due respect to Ron and Kevin, much of the fixed gear they placed (including many of the bolts on the upper pitches) were crap. I think we did the 4th ascent, in either 76 or 77 and the gear was still essentially "new."
As far as the route being death -- well, while the falls would likely be clean (if long), we thought some of the belay anchors were so poor that if the leader did take the unlikely big whipper, the belay might not withstand the fall. Actually, as Kevin points out, most of the run-outs on the upper section is sustained 5.9 -- meaning you shouldn't fall there anyway.
With thin, shortened or otherwise modified Lost Arrow type pins, perhaps some of the pin placements might be more secure. Ultimately, pins are a short term type of "fixed" protection and absent availability of other clean gear, should (imo) be replaced with permanent fixed gear (but, hey it ain't my route).
Edited to add: Karl is right, rapping the route would necessarily involve replacing the anchors as you go, or risk taking a long ride to the deck.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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"Maybe since we're talking about these days. something will happen"
Who better to do the job of upgrading the gear than a guy who lives in the Valley and makes his living by climbing its rocks? As you pointed out, unlike the routes on the N. Face Apron, you don't have to lead Space Babble ground up on the decomposing gear to do the replacement.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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You might have a point Mellisa, but I'm like Switzerland, neutral and don't drill and don't chop. I don't even have the gear except for an emegency 1/4 incher.
And I wouldn't bother except if I could deal with the fixed pin issue too. I like Steve's idea but it's not practicable yet, except maybe by him. Clint had a good idea too, of using piton looking hangers, but I don't know if the community is ready to buy replacing pins with bolts, and don't want my efforts chopped.
In any case, I'm just old enough and rusty enough to consider Space Babble in the league of maybe coulda, but just don't have enough fire for risking my neck on anymore.
I don't remember any fixed pro on some of those pitches. Sure, you could be solid, but a pebble from above or a butt cramp and you could ride 300 feet. (I do still solo once in awhile) If the leadouts were 5.8 maybe, but I content to just spray!
Now it's in Shaggy's league for sure. But it sounds like we might lure these codgers out from the woodwork for an adrenaline reunion. Why spoil that?
Peace
Karl
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Cosgrove and i did this route in the spring of '84 and had a blast and got very puckered up on this route. The climbing was excellent and route finding tricky as there was no chalk to guide you like now a days...
what i do remember is a 5.9 pitch near the end (last pitch) where scott was getting a little sketchy 45' above my head with no pro, and i was ready to untie from the belay and put him on the anchors and see if we both lived or not!
Very memorable day for both of us young em's and the memories are still strong for me during my time spent in yos in the 80's.
My only concren is, if you replace the bolts i would not replace the pins with bolts as you will kill the true taste of adventure and turn it into another trade route.....
KS
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Kurt,
Thanks for sharing the story of when you did it - pretty cool.
> My only concren is, if you replace the bolts i would not replace the pins with bolts as you will kill the true taste of adventure and turn it into another trade route.....
Clearly your concerns are shared by many. Although using the original types of pitons under the flakes on p1 means they will fall out again fairly quickly, unless someone volunteers to go and reset them every year or so, I think. Or people could rap down the route and reset/replace the pins if they intend to lead it. But unless people have access to Randy's topo showing where the pins go, this is not likely to happen.
What would be your (and Kevin's) thoughts on having at least one bolt at the belay anchor at the end of pitch 3? Those 2 pins stick pretty far out and were scary even to rap on. The pins could be left in place if some people don't want to use the bolt as part of the anchor....
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Is this cliff, given its exposure, subject to a lot of freeze/thaw action? If so, it also suggests that cracks dropping behind flakes from above would be vulnerable, especially if widened/opened by pitons. In other words, a solution involving re-placing just the pitons may be pretty temporary. A or some of the flakes may be vulnerable to repeated mechanical prying/impacts, and the increased potential for freeze/thaw wedging. Also, not so many are familiar with hammer and piton use, or even carry them. If this is the one free climb in the Valley where hammers if not pins are obligatory, it won't be climbed often. Not sure what's the right solution. I haven't done the climb, though was intrigued enough to once hike up to its base.
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James
climber
A tent in the redwoods
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IF someone replaces the pins with bolts...yada yada yada. When some DOES replace anything then we can talk about it. Until then I'm saving up my karma so I can max it out on Middle sometime.
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junior
Trad climber
Modesto. CA
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I climbed this route in 87 with Werner and the belays were very Questionable. The first pitch I protected with small brass nuts and stoppers and I don't remember any fixed pins. I wouldn't think new fixed pins are required for this pitch, the gear seemed adequate, but new anchor bolts a necessity. The climbing was killer but I don't think it was 5.11a more like 5.11+. Terry
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Terry,
Thanks for the beta on the adequate clean gear. That settles the debate for me. Bruce and I will replace the existing bolts.
We will also place a bolt belay (to replace the piton belay) at the end of p3, if that is OK with Kevin and Ron. The other permission needed would be for adding a second belay bolt at the end of the first pitch, and at the end of pitch five - is that OK, Kevin?
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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we also need to consider the new small gear out there that was not present on the first ascent and later ascents that may avoid some pins and make some belays better.
ks
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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With respect to refitting this route, I am committed to getting it done this coming year. I still need to coordinate any activities with Kevin so that at least one member of the FA is directly involved. I am coming up with solutions about as fast as the problems are showing up. Seattle is way industrial and a paradise when it comes to fabrication. Just to update, the prototypes are made of 3/16" Type 304 mild stainless steel 2"X2" angle. The steel is somewhat wrought during production and should be suitably stiff to act as pinbolt. Karl, I just dropped off a sheet of 12 guage Type 304 (~1/8") to be folded into a shape that I can cut and press baby angles out of! It will be a couple of weeks.
The best thing to happen all day was the conceptual realization that relatively inexpensive stainless steel dropin anchors can be set deeply enough with the setting tool provided to allow a 3/8" or 1/2" solid stainless Grade 5 machine bolt to make the connection to the hanger once a stainless sleeve takes up the slack in 1/8" oversize hole. Compared to the bolts that I have been using (Rawl ss 5 piece) and will soon need to replace, this will be an ultrasolid, all stainless bolt for hopefully about $3 or so! I still have to source the 1/16" X 1/2" stainless tubing which should be easy.
The beauty of the pinbolt option for replacing the fixed pins is that with a little skill and craftsmanship the final result in each case should be far more reliable that the original gizzle and shizzle. No reason that SB can't be a model for restoration and one that comes at just the right time it seems.
Cheers-Steve
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I trust with the caliber of people talking about fixing this route, that they will use their best judgement and their judgement will come from experience. If clean gear works well, then great, but some tiny RP in a roof might be psychological pro rather than a real solutions. You guys will know.
Also, I love the idea of pins or Pin-Bolts that could be permanent and not entail repeated hammering and removal. Boldness isn't the only value worth ascribing a value too, the stone itself also counts.
And if the route is done right, maybe somebody will do it, particularly after all this talk
Peace
Karl
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