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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 10, 2016 - 10:12pm PT
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we know a lot, but we don't know everything, that is certainly true...
for instance, we don't know that just letting anything happen will work out ok in the end... and especially if what we do know is telling us that it's highly likely.
Rick, your faith that the future will find the solution to whatever self serving behavior you wish to adopt doesn't make a convincing argument.
as far as calculating probabilities, that's what the paper I linked up thread attempted to do... it is more a top down sort of calculation, we don't really know how to do the bottom up calculation... but it isn't as bad as some have posted, e.g.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/12/science/genetic-flip-helped-organisms-go-from-one-cell-to-many.html
this is a story on the paper:
http://elifesciences.org/content/5/e10147
Evolution of an ancient protein function involved in organized multicellularity in animals
Douglas P Anderson, Dustin S Whitney, Victor Hanson-Smith, Arielle Woznica, William Campodonico-Burnett, Brian F Volkman, Nicole King, Kenneth E Prehoda, Joseph W Thornton
Abstract
To form and maintain organized tissues, multicellular organisms orient their mitotic spindles relative to neighboring cells. A molecular complex scaffolded by the GK protein-interaction domain (GKPID) mediates spindle orientation in diverse animal taxa by linking microtubule motor proteins to a marker protein on the cell cortex localized by external cues. Here we illuminate how this complex evolved and commandeered control of spindle orientation from a more ancient mechanism. The complex was assembled through a series of molecular exploitation events, one of which – the evolution of GKPID’s capacity to bind the cortical marker protein – can be recapitulated by reintroducing a single historical substitution into the reconstructed ancestral GKPID. This change revealed and repurposed an ancient molecular surface that previously had a radically different function. We show how the physical simplicity of this binding interface enabled the evolution of a new protein function now essential to the biological complexity of many animals.
the question being considered in this a part of the "Step 6" in the paper by Watson Implications of an Anthropic Model of Evolution for Emergence of Complex Life and Intelligence I linked above. It would seem that many of these "impossible" steps aren't so impossible after all...
Such a paper would not be possible to write outside of the context provided by evolution. The hypothesis of the paper, the methods of identifying a candidate "ancient molecule" and the manipulation of the molecule to find a likely, pre-existing role, are all consequences of the theory of evolution and its explanation of life on planet Earth.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Jan 10, 2016 - 10:52pm PT
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Those spindle fibers have always fascinated me! I read somewhere that spindle fibers hitting their mark is like a scale model of hitting a dime from a mile out with a bullet. And it happens every second!
If life got a foothold on another planet I can see it developing into complex, intelligent life (the focus of the majority of research).
The probabilities I posted about above referred to the initial foothold for life. Even the simplest forms of life are insanely complex, yet they had to have a beginning.
Variations of the "crystal theory" seem to be the current direction of things. For example:
Biochemical evolution III: Polymerization on organophilic silica-rich surfaces, crystal–chemical modeling, formation of first cells, and geological clues
Abstract
Catalysis at organophilic silica-rich surfaces of zeolites and feldspars might generate replicating biopolymers from simple chemicals supplied by meteorites, volcanic gases, and other geological sources. Crystal–chemical modeling yielded packings for amino acids neatly encapsulated in 10-ring channels of the molecular sieve silicalite-ZSM-5-(mutinaite). Calculation of binding and activation energies for catalytic assembly into polymers is progressing for a chemical composition with one catalytic Al–OH site per 25 neutral Si tetrahedral sites. Internal channel intersections and external terminations provide special stereochemical features suitable for complex organic species. Polymer migration along nano/micrometer channels of ancient weathered feldspars, plus exploitation of phosphorus and various transition metals in entrapped apatite and other microminerals, might have generated complexes of replicating catalytic biomolecules, leading to primitive cellular organisms. The first cell wall might have been an internal mineral surface, from which the cell developed a protective biological cap emerging into a nutrient-rich “soup.” Ultimately, the biological cap might have expanded into a complete cell wall, allowing mobility and colonization of energy-rich challenging environments. Electron microscopy of honeycomb channels inside weathered feldspars of the Shap granite (northwest England) has revealed modern bacteria, perhaps indicative of Archean ones. All known early rocks were metamorphosed too highly during geologic time to permit simple survival of large-pore zeolites, honeycombed feldspar, and encapsulated species. Possible microscopic clues to the proposed mineral adsorbents/catalysts are discussed for planning of systematic study of black cherts from weakly metamorphosed Archaean sediments. (I added the bold)
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I've read a couple books on this. Still feels like grasping at biochemical straws and I don't think we've figured out a mechanism for the origin of life with reasonable probabilities. Not to mention that the minute probabilities of thousands of different biochemical steps happening in the correct place and time compound the problem.
Basically, The only reason I believe there's life on earth is because I can see it and I can't fathom it happening twice.
Lots of empty planets, I think... Maybe we can change that once we figure out how to bend a few dimensions.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jan 10, 2016 - 11:25pm PT
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Your a great resource Ed, but what gives you the idea we have the ability to let or not let our activities as a race happen? Are we now gods? When did this transformation occur? As far as I can tell the path of events are forward only, not subject to repeat to correct errors, and our interactions with our multitudes, the various political systems, the environment, are all together vastly to complex for prediction or self determinism beyond a very short period of time ahead. The ability for planned evolution of the whole of ourselves and the earth around us is a very long ways off in the future.
Colonizing Mars seems within reach though. We have the technology for inner solar system human transport. We have the technology to excavate underground habitats and power them, we have the bioengineering capabilities to condition the native dirt for crops humans can metabolize. The planet has enough water for consumption, crop production, and synthesis of fuels. We could conceivably be self sustaining after a critical mass of colonists with accompanying machinery for resource extraction, processing and manufacturing are in place.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Jan 10, 2016 - 11:37pm PT
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Matt Damon already figured it out.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jan 10, 2016 - 11:39pm PT
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Yeah, that was a good movie with some good science. Much like Zubrin's ideas. We need to go underground though.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 11, 2016 - 12:20am PT
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at what cost Rick?
and for what benefit?
Columbus had a business plan, after all... and he sold it to the Spanish Crown which were his venture capitalists...
give me an idea why colonizing Mars is cost effective?
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Jan 11, 2016 - 07:07am PT
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ED,
i like this:
give me an idea why colonizing Mars is cost effective?
Rick, DNA will never rule the universe, too narrow of a working temperature range.
as for Pipe Dreams: Mr Peabody's coal company has hauled it away.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 11, 2016 - 07:32am PT
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Only stupid people would pick Mars.
It's the lower planetary system and totally inauspicious.
Send the fools there by their mechanical means.
They're clueless with their mechanical propulsion systems for traveling.
It's done by sound vibrations and not by mechanical means which they haven't even heard of yet.
It proves even more and more how clueless modern materialistic caveman science is ......
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Jan 11, 2016 - 10:36am PT
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Only stupid people would pick Mars.
It's the lower planetary system and totally inauspicious.
Send the fools there by their mechanical means.
They're clueless with their mechanical propulsion systems for traveling.
It's done by sound vibrations and not by mechanical means which they haven't even heard of yet.
It proves even more and more how clueless modern materialistic caveman science is ......
Yep.... American crankloons.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jan 11, 2016 - 10:42am PT
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I'm not sorry in the slightest about being a materialist crankloon Werner. We are stuck in this material world for the duration of our life cycles. Might as well have an exploration project that can unite our race with a shared vision. You, well your welcome to vibrate your way their ahead of the colonists arrival. Quack quack.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jan 11, 2016 - 01:20pm PT
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"How could colonizing Mars be cost effective" Ed asks. Well, with it's 1/3 of Earth's gravity well to escape from it is a perfect base for mining of the asteroid belt for everything from water, methane, metals. The planet itself is undoubtedly abundant in industrial metals and fuels for spacecraft to mine the asteroids. The economic benefit will eventually exceed Columbus' proposal by orders of magnitude. Besides that why have all our eggs in one basket, for survivability of the species dispersal makes sense. Add in the shared vision of exploration of new frontiers tendency to unite mankind and it makes lots of sense imo.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jan 11, 2016 - 04:20pm PT
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Cleanup yet own shet pile at home DMT before you condemn others. Spoken like a true hypocrit.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Jan 11, 2016 - 04:30pm PT
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Given the current state of technology, the most feasible way I can envision preserving the human genome would be sending freeze-dried DNA packets into outer space (toward other solar systems, not just this one). I'm sure you'd have no problem finding male donors (who would not doubt boast about launching one into space); but I'm not so sure women would participate so easily.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jan 11, 2016 - 06:04pm PT
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DNA may be a complex molecule but it's made of only 5 very common elements.
Hydrogen - Oxygen (water), Carbon, Nitrogen and Phosphorus
Put in (symbolic) pot. Bring to suitable temperature. Mix (thermal currents) for a long time. Millions or billions of years.
The Universe has time. Lots of time.
Will the soup create DNA?
Given the odds (and time) it's highly likely that DNA already exists outside Earth.
Somewhere. Has it "learned" how to self-replicate? Of course. It's "what DNA does".
Has it evolved into life as we know it? Now that's the question. It's all a matter of opportunity, time and chance.
http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/09/water-is-flowing-on-mars/407662/
You will note this doesn't actually require being on a planet. An asteroid or even dust cloud will do.
A related problem: Now that water has been verified on Mars, NASA is very concerned that the early Martian probes were not sufficiently cleansed of Earth proteins and traces of DNA. We in fact may have introduced our own life onto Mars. Confounding the question: if we find life on Mars where did it originate?
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/09/did-humans-contaminate-mars/407731/
“We know there’s life on Mars because we sent it there,” said John Grunsfeld, a science director at NASA, during a press conference with reporters on Monday.
This was Grunsfeld being funny, a little.........
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jan 11, 2016 - 06:08pm PT
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I'm very skeptical of all this speculation
It's "more likely" that zero life exists outside Earth
Is there any evidence of life outside earth???? NO
(not counting us bringing life to Mars or whatever)
BUTTTTTTTTTTTTttt
We should investigate every aspect of these other planets for
science
and I hope to be proven wrong, but doubt it will ever happen
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jan 11, 2016 - 06:27pm PT
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Another Prediction!!!
No mining on other planets or the Moon will ever happen
The cost is Insane, we still haven't got a single Human collected rock off Mars. For good reason! It's too expensive.
And as others have noted, the exposure to Cosmic Radiation while in space will be almost impossible to block.
So the conclusion is: Just forget about it.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 11, 2016 - 06:30pm PT
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Yeah the whole mining thing always seemed like a ridiculous concept. A scam idea for suckers.
Name a material with enough value to make even looking for it out there worthwhile.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2016 - 06:33pm PT
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I had kind of put this one to bed in my mind. Good to see it evolving and devolving simultaneously.
I'm gonna open it up on the iPhone and re-read it. Why?
It's too time consuming to fire off responses via iPhone.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jan 11, 2016 - 06:40pm PT
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^^^^flatearthers
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 11, 2016 - 06:41pm PT
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True enough in many cases. However at least on earth it sometimes is not. I don't see how the same could be said for off earth mining.
Almost all the hard goods we use day to day come from mining and most of the energy. (drilling is a type of mining I would suppose)
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