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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Apr 28, 2015 - 04:29pm PT
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When I started climbing I didn't give a hoot about prior climbers or history of climbing, just like I don't care about current or past professional athletes or watching sports on TV. I just liked climbing.
I started caring more when I started climbing more in Yosemite for a few reasons:
1) When I started climbing in Yosemite, I had a big void in my life that I needed to fill, and I attached a lot of meaning to climbing to do that. Part of attaching more meaning to climbing meant that adding more layers of understanding and back-story to the activities I did made it a richer experience that filled a bigger part of that void, made me feel more part of a "community" when I was feeling very dissociated from my family.
2) Knowing some history of climbing and specific climbers helps to forecast the level of adventure associated with doing specific routes or visiting certain areas. It is like a piece of a puzzle when playing the game of re-discovering old routes.
3) Knowing history sheds some light on quality and spacing of bolts.
4) I now see history/remembrance as a sort of currency, showing appreciation to those who got the bolts in there and left some grand stories and a paper trail to fuel my adventures
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Apr 28, 2015 - 05:04pm PT
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Most climbing history is highly local. I know lots of AZ climbing lore but wouldn't expect others to care.
Beyond the 70s shenanigans that we are constantly reminded of, what was done in the valley that is of any global climbing significance? The hammer era was essentially a disgrace and how many current routes harder than 5.10 or so don't rely on a key holds that are pin scars? One could argue that Yosemite gave rise to modern fast climbing in the big ranges but, between the chipped routes and readily available rescues, it really is not much different from a gym.
So i think lots of pioneers will be forgotten outside of the local scene, not because they were not great folks and and great climbers, but because the history of climbing in yos is very overrated by the still living participants.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2015 - 05:59pm PT
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The hammer era was essentially a disgrace
Wow! Really? 40 years from now will we read the "roped era was essentially a disgrace"?
Hmmm... yea, probably. From my perspective:sad.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Apr 28, 2015 - 06:37pm PT
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Hammers are / were condoned chipping. Harder climbing on passive gear was common place in the UK and elsewhere decades prior. To my knowledge no rope created a chipped shitshow like Serenity Crack.
Most if not all of the major alps north faces had been climbed in far better style before any major wall California climb. The only thing comparable to 50s-early 80s wall climbs were the Himalayan sieges, which at least took place at altitude, in real weather and more than a few hundred yards from a highway.
Again, I am not saying many of California's yos climbers were not great climbers, but in the big picture little was done there.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2015 - 06:48pm PT
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Wait... is that my jaw that just bounced off the ground?
but in the big picture little was done there.
"there" being the Valley.
I respect what was being done in the Alps, Germany, France, Italy, and Britain but I cannot condone this statment.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2015 - 06:51pm PT
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Kevin, I did more than a few routes with Yabo while he was under the influence of whatever he could find and he still made me look like a fool.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
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Apr 28, 2015 - 07:06pm PT
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Yabo might have climbed harder when he was under the influence, but not better.
Does anyone remember when John Peck was the first one to ride the Pipeline on acid? I thought so.
Was it this fateful day in 1963. No one is saying. John is still riding today. On acid? Probably some days.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 28, 2015 - 07:36pm PT
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Everything is forgotten until one re-awakens .......
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujò de la Playa
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Apr 28, 2015 - 07:45pm PT
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Now that puts it all into perspective Herr Braun. You have a knack for that. Saves me a lot of explaining.
"One man gathers what another man spills."
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Apr 30, 2015 - 10:22am PT
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I think that whether people are motivated to remember the history is really about the value that history has to them. So for young climbers maybe it's fun to think about the good old days and how far we've come and how they're members of this wild tribe of adventurers, or maybe they need to break from the past and adventure off on their own. For the pioneers themselves either as DMT nails it "Legacy!", like Bridwell being pissed about not being known, or legacy is not really what they were in it for, like Bridwell laughing off getting booted from SAR site. Or maybe some of each. For the rest of us, to the extent that we like thinking about climbing when we're not climbing, and doing so validates our awesomeness to be associated with our tribe's actions, it's fun to think about the history of climbing.
But in addition to our individual relationships to climbing history, we also make a moral judgment about whether or not other people should be interested in climbing history. Sorry if I misunderstand, but to me, that seems to be what this thread is about. A big part of that, I think, is that we feel disrespected by young people who don't value that history - they lack humility and respect and gratitude towards our accomplishments and the advantages that we've carved out for them. So for example in the 5.10d thread's exchange that inspired this thread, FatDad tells SweetWilliam to listen to his mommy and go to sleep, in this thread the op cringes at SweetWilliams attitude (and grammar) and calls Yosemite pioneers "men" and young climbers "gym rats", Warbler needs to ascribe disinterest in climbing history to lack of stoke or need for more creativity, or my personal favorite, that if you're not interested in climbing history then you're a simpleton who needs to conserve your brain power :-)
But our real pioneers here on earth started 4 billion years ago. The advantages of our neoteny means that we retain juvenile characteristics into adulthood because doing so contributes to our evolutionary success (think Werner soloing up a crack with a boombox in one hand - how disrespectful! what would his mommy say? :-) But in those 4 billion years, have we learned to have humility and respect and gratitude for our biological pioneers and the path they've led us on to where we are today - the current complexity and diversity of life and the complexity and diversity of our own belief creation processes, and the way those belief processes work and are of value to us (eg the value of our SweetWilliams)? Not so much I think.
Why should Yosemite climbing history be different? Because we're losing our youthful perspectives. Those kids need to show proper respect! Even if we didnt and don't.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Apr 30, 2015 - 11:02am PT
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One could argue that Yosemite gave rise to modern fast climbing in the big ranges but, between the chipped routes and readily available rescues, it really is not much different from a gym.
This demonstrates how not knowing history leads to incorrect conclusions. Until the advent of the permanent SAR corps, rescue was by no means a sure thing. The Rowell/Harding rescue in 1968 was a first of its kind. The attempt (sad to say, unnecessary) to rescue Pratt and Fredericks resulted in the death of the rescuer. There wasn't a truly successful rescue from El Cap until the rescue on the West Buttress in fall of 1970 (since one of the rescued is a friend, I'll keep that one anonymous).
Accordingly, the pioneering routes in the Valley until, really, the early 1970's, did not have readily available rescue.
Also, those doing those routes demonstrated their care and concern for those coming after in the rapid conversion to clean climbing in the early 1970's. As Kevin points out, pitons were all we had at first, but I, for one, started using nuts (making my own forerunners of tube chocks and Stoppers because none were commercially available) as soon as I found out about nuts. And let's face it - I was just a "normal" climber. I was following trends, not leading them.
When we forget what happened, we draw the wrong conclusions and sometimes, justify actions that cannot be justified. As DMT and I have both argued, those who come after determine historical significance, but they should make their determinations based on accurate information.
John
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Apr 30, 2015 - 12:03pm PT
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Agreed JEleazarian. How far back are we willing to go in remembering our history? Do we just go back to when we had chipped routes and readily available rescues?, or do we just go back to when the first climbers showed up in Yosemite? It seems to me that however far back we feel is advantageous for us to go, we're unwilling to go back farther and try to understand why that's where we stop, and why we're unwilling to accept the reality and commonality of our human belief processes, because we want to be able to justify our (individual) perspective and condemn the other ones.
Sure when the zombie apocalypse comes I'm going to be fvcked! because having ignored the history of the automobile, I don't know how to hotwire a car. But in the meanwhile I'm alive here on earth benefitting from the human belief processes that the pioneers have paved for me.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Apr 30, 2015 - 04:49pm PT
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Nice story of some history! Thanks Kevin.......a pioneer/legend/StoneMaster in climbing history. These stories must be carried on, because young or old, history helps us understand where we came from.
20 years from now, history will be told in the 13 y/o that first climbed 5.15! I started and I don't even know if 12's where being done.....do know there where no cams on my rack yet. I marvel in what is still being pushed as I marveled when Bachar told me, he and Peter had just done El Cap and Half Dome....I laughed and he replied...."what ever Bro" shrugged his shoulders and proceeded to walk down the main path in C-4.
Peace
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 30, 2015 - 06:29pm PT
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How many here free climbed routes in the days before hexes and cams.
If you drove your protection pins too hard your second wouldn't be able to clean them and if you drove them too light the piton could rip out if you fell on it.
Mannn what nerve racking way to climb back then.
Long run outs and with death fall potentials, heavy gear for protection, hammers, shitty harnesses, crappy heavy ropes, stooopid free climbing boots etc etc.
Can't wait to do it all over again ..... :-)
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mastadon
Trad climber
crack addict
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Apr 30, 2015 - 06:36pm PT
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First time on Meat Grinder we used pins. First time on Sacherer Crack we used pins. Backed off Center Moby Dick when I ran out of large bongs. Climbed on the apron with pitons and hammer.
On the NW face of Half Dome in 1972, we didn't take a single nut.
Those were the days. Don't miss them. Meat Grinder was literally a puke fest with pitons.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 30, 2015 - 06:40pm PT
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Don, next time we meet we'll do the grinder with pitons, mountain double boots and hemp rope.
And of course you'll be leading it .... :-)
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Apr 30, 2015 - 07:38pm PT
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Meat Grinder was literally a puke fest with pitons.
Jesus, what an experience that must have been.
The pioneers live on through mentor-ship of the next generation. It has already happened, continues to and will forever occur.
It is natural to hand over the adventure to the younger climber provided they really care.
I talk about the pioneers every chance I get. Some are posting on this thread.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Apr 30, 2015 - 07:42pm PT
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Nerve wracking....isn't there a climb in Tuolumne with some similarity
Werner, you remember the C-4 incident???
Peace
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jstan
climber
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Apr 30, 2015 - 08:14pm PT
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Will Pioneers Be Forgotten?
Is the sky blue?
An assumption underlies our attitudes here. That there can be some sort of certified history that everyone can accept. Clearly not. And in the face of new equipment, new practices, new tricks, and above all else memories , old experiences can never be reproduced.
Why try? We did what we did with the people we wanted to do it with. The experience is a memory but also a memory shared by the participants. That's plenty. Why pretend it can be made into something else?
Guy Waterman caught very accurately what Gunks climbing was in the 70's. Glorious fun.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 30, 2015 - 09:08pm PT
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Keep it up guys. This is Gold. Please keep passing the torch.
Thanks
Mike Cowper
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