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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Nov 24, 2014 - 06:03pm PT
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Refresh my memory.
Why is it that Grossman didn't do the climb to demonstrate the better style?
I will cite Robbins chopping bolts on the Dawn wall, then deciding he made a mistake.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 24, 2014 - 06:06pm PT
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Wall of Squalor.....courtesy, the shitters.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 24, 2014 - 06:08pm PT
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There was only one shitter, Jim.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Nov 24, 2014 - 06:15pm PT
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strong posts Al_Smith and Mike Friedrichs...
historian, eh?
oh the irony in the following grossman sentiment: "Again some think that this level of preparation is the cool part of this story and others like me see such lack of experience and skill as disgraceful"
what is the preparation, the experience, and the skills that grossman has undertaken and fostered in order to be worthy of the title "historian"?
to anybody with any experience in/with academia, it is quite evident that while he may be a collector, he is too emotionally involved to be anything remotely deserving of the title historian...
which is a shame, really... because it is also quite obvious that his direct action-based contributions to climbing verge on the impeccable...
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Nov 24, 2014 - 06:24pm PT
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Hey, Meaty... No disrespect.... I count for very little in this world, let alone this board... you can pull back the claws, I am nobody and I know it. Don't make my written word into anything it ain't.
not one person on SAR said anything like that around me
 ...and therefore not one person could have possibly had stated anything like it. SAR 'is' a better ind of human being. SAR is above all that ego stuff.
You didn't experience it, therefore it didn't happen?
This is the same kind of centrism that has me calling people names... This would be like saying "I climbed with the best people, they would never chop anyone's bolts unless it was for a really, really good reason, therefore, no climbers ever chopped bolts on routes they didn't put up for bad reasons. No'm'sain?
But, I heard the dude say it in the movie I watched... so did you if you watched the movie I watched. The movie I watched is posted to Hulu.
Plus... I'm so far outside the fight... (It was happening in the eighty's... I was coming into adolescence)... why would you need to point out this nobody named Jingy for this... What stake do you have in this fight Meaty? And how much of an opponent do you see me as? I am nobody.
I know that we have ideals... all over the place... we would like to believe a ton of stuff about the selfless goodness of SAR personnel. and those surrounding them...
I'd say that SAR speaks for itself by saving lives... not by what they say on the ground... right? But what if the person that was sent to save your lives didn't really have that as their first goal? What then? What do you say then?
I am nobody
P.S. I am no better and no worse than anyone else. I may have less resource with which to solve the worlds problems, and honestly I have none of the mind to put anything into action that would help even slightly.
Please don't make anything I write into something that it is not... meaningful or carrying any weight.
BTW - I certainly can have an opinion on anything I read or hear on the subject and will not hesitate to write it here...
The sentiment that I heard in that video is the lowest of humanity.
And with the second ascent, Mark and Richard step into the a different picture than many have tried to paint around them and their ascent.
At this point I side with Mark and Richard, and firmly against those who wished ill on them during that period of time. It's not like I can make up for anything, but on principal I feel I am right. Climbers were behaving like ridiculous, petty, animals and not like strong open-minded climber types.
Further Reader Edit:
But unless we are missing something still at this point, it would seem that the whole controversy amounts to little more than:
a) Outsiders vs. Locals use of a resource
b) Prideful behavior on both sides
c) Conflating a personality conflict between a half dozen people with a community wide frustration/situation (hence the currently refuted comments you made re: SAR's feeling on the matter. Last I checked, the meeting between SAR, M & R, and the disgruntled other climbers resulted in the Park Service and SAR telling the guys to get on with their climb and for everyone else to cool it. So appealing to the community with 'even SAR thought they were doing a botch job, should be left to die, etc, etc, etc' is not only morally and legally reprehensible (see Meaty's and Werner's comments) but also is encouraging group think by appealing to some authority on the subject without it even being the case.)
d) An unpopular route going up on a feature on a largeeee piece of rock that offers similar climbing on everything but that particular feature
e) Human beings by and large enjoy being spectators to drama whether they care or not which party proves to be 'correct' and so are willing to watch this one play out, popcorn in hand
That about sums things up for me, perfectly.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 24, 2014 - 06:32pm PT
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There was only one shitter, Jim.
Oh yes the Magic-Shitter theory. A single high-velocity sh|t somehow hit and smeared their ropes then traveled up 1200 feet, weeks later, and exploded above the climbers.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Nov 24, 2014 - 06:35pm PT
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^^Uh-oh. Well played, the Fet - luckily I can still edit my post to "base rope-shitter". Thanks for your timely post!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 24, 2014 - 06:56pm PT
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Yikes! I forgot about the bombs from above!! Well played!
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Meaty
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 07:36pm PT
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"And in spite of Dimitri's rantings, I am quite certain I remember Steve speaking of SAR's reluctance to rescue them should they have run into trouble."
One more time Pete....no one on the SAR site said anything even remotely close, no one, you can't name anyone on the SAR site that stated that because no one on the SAR site said it....but it makes for good hype to sell this dreadfully silly movie you cherish like a lemming.
Again, you can't name anyone on SAR that said they wouldn't rescue those two....Steve was not on SAR at the time.
Jingy, for you to equate some nasty a$$ white supremacist with people working SAR is just absurd. What you heard in that movie is a pack of lies, no one on the SAR site said anything of the kind.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 24, 2014 - 08:11pm PT
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Dimitri,
What do you mean I can't name anyone who said it?
STEVE SAID IT - in the movie! Watch the movie! Watch the interview with Steve at the end!
I think Dimitri must be trolling me. His statement is illogical. Just because someone does not hear something, does not mean it was not said.
You ARE joking, right, Dimitri? Because you've seen the movie, right? And you've seen the interview with Steve at the end that requires looking at a separate section of the DVD, where Steve says precisely this. The part that didn't make it into the main section of the movie, but in the "appendix" thing. [someone help me here...]
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nov 24, 2014 - 08:18pm PT
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I remember that part of the movie and thinking "wow, that's harsh". And I must have replayed it. If I remember right his point was more that people were so incensed they talked about not wanting to rescue them, not that they'd actually do it. I remembered thinking that could easily be taken the wrong way, which it seems it was.
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Meaty
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 08:25pm PT
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No one on SAR said they wouldn't rescue those two, no one. Just an absurd assertion to say the least.
You two are pretty dense...eh?
When you come up with a name let me know.
Also in one of the trailers for the movie those two claim they were surrounded and threatened with violence, just another flat out lie.
They throw victim cards, Pete, Fet and so many others are fooled.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 24, 2014 - 09:09pm PT
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^^ Yes, Dimitri - I suppose you're right. I must have been mistaken.
Sorry, buddy.
Edit for John below: Steve does use first person plural pronoun when referring to SAR
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John M
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 09:10pm PT
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was Steve a member of SAR at the time?
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Meaty
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 09:15pm PT
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JohnM.....no he was not.....I was and no one on the SAR site said that.
Steve was not on the SAR site during that time...nope.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 24, 2014 - 09:19pm PT
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^^ It sounds from the above quote rather like Steve was.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Nov 24, 2014 - 09:33pm PT
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So it would seem Meaty, that the issue is not as much that people believe that SAR said those things, it's that Grossman in his role as Historian is saying that SAR said those things. You say they did not. Thus, if we accept your word, the issue is not whether SAR said those things, but whether we are to believe Grossman when he says that those things were said.
In that light, one no longer needs to say that SAR didn't say those things because the issue changes to that one would need to say that Grossman is lying when he said that those involved with SAR said those things.
OR
we can go back to saying that it's possible for a group of people to have conversations between smaller subsets of the larger group that every single member of that larger group would not be privy to.
but now I'm starting to get snarky, so I'll sign off for the night.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 24, 2014 - 09:34pm PT
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Also in one of the trailers for the movie those two claim they were surrounded and threatened with violence, just another flat out lie.
So, let me see what you are really saying here, and please let me know which of these options is correct. "Richard and Mark are flat out lying about the threatened violence, and...."
1) I know this because I know Richard and Mark personally and know that they are liars.
2) I know this because I traveled everywhere with Richard and Mark during every second of their time in the Valley, so I know all of the incidents and encounters they went through first-hand, and there was no such encounter that I observed first-hand.
3) I know this because I have talked to every person who interacted with Richard and Mark during their time in the Valley, and I know that none of those people would ever lie, and all of them told me that they never threatened violence as Richard and Mark say.
There are other possibilities, I'm sure, but please enlighten us about exactly how you know that we are lying about this claim.
Regarding your own "victim mentality," please provide one shred of evidence of our knowing who you are and of accusing you personally of anything.
Actually, here are the facts about you relative to the whole WoS saga:
1) I didn't know your name until somebody up thread associated your name with your ST handle (and I still have only that to go on).
2) I didn't recognize your name prior to that, so I have no awareness of any aspect of your involvement in the saga.
3) Your name appears nowhere in our notes nor in the original book manuscript (that included names).
4) I had no idea you were part of SAR at that time, nor could I possibly pick you out of a line-up.
5) You certainly are no "big name" climber that I should recognize by name, nor were you at the time of WoS.
6) Thus, given all of the above, you were then and are now entirely irrelevant to the story.
7) Your only "contribution" to any WoS thread has been comparable to what we see in this one, namely: personal frothing and moaning to call attention to yourself, when, really, you are (see above) irrelevant to the story.
8) When SG says on video that discussions among SAR people literally included floating the idea of doing nothing to help (not that help was even close to needed), HE and nobody else is the ONE making that claim about SAR. So if you feel affronted, threatened, offended, or any other synonym for butthurt, you should take it up with the ONE who said it, not with anybody else on this thread.
9) Actually, it was not John Dill, Mike Durr, or SAR that gave us a pass to just continue with the route. In actual fact (documented) we fought our way up the ranger hierarchy (facing very active resistance ever step for a solid month) until we reached the head day ranger, John Daley. Daley had heard the story, talked with us for over an hour, got furious as he heard what we had been going through, and said that HE would put an end to the whole harassment (including the fact that the Camp 4 rangers were raising our camping rates beyond those of anybody else, which is, again, documented). It was ONLY when John Daley put the hammer down from above that John Dill and particular members of SAR backed off, and then the harassment took the form strictly of bombing runs from above from other routes. To my knowledge, you were irrelevant to all of those events as well.
In short, to my knowledge, you are irrelevant both by name and by activity. Of course, perhaps you were more relevant than I know. Were you among those bombing us from above?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 24, 2014 - 09:50pm PT
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John Dill, Mike Durr, the camp4 campground ranger and sar team all were behind this?
I never went to the meeting in the sar cache after talking to you guys.
What happened in there?
Dimitri, did you go to that meeting?
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