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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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May 10, 2014 - 09:29am PT
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You liberals actually think that wealth redistribution is the answer, but we have decades of data proving that as you increase the tax rate, you actually reduce taxes paid.
This is an overly simplistic statement that is not true. Are there times that this can happen? Of course. Like any pricing strategy the key to high revenue is to find the sweet spot. Not to much not to little. Cases of higher taxes reducing revenue are much less common than viceversa. decades of documentation.. certainly the propagandists have their reams of cherry picked examples.
There are some unintended consequences of too much wealth that most folks don't recognize. One area that affects the poor most directly is commodities pricing.
Look what happened when the markets crashed in 07 to gasoline prices. They went from near $4/gallon to under $2/gallon. Not due to demand at first but almost completely due to a commodities market crash.
extreme wealth greatly inflates commodities markets due to deregulation under Clinton mostly. What do you do with an extra 10M?
Right now all of us are paying at least an extra dollar per gallon purely due to rampant oil market speculation.
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As to madbolters point that choices have consequences. I agree and I live my life that way as there is no other good way for an individual to face life and try to live well.
However our system is not offering anywhere near the wealth of good choices it once did. Remember when a guy with a 4 year degree could usually support a family of four and buy a house and retire reasonably. This is much rarer now. So many reason for this. Stagnant wages due to deliberate attacks on union representation. Loss of production locally. Reduction of infrastructure investment. Some of this due to deregulation of business and over-regulation of unions.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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May 10, 2014 - 10:05am PT
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you certainly sound like a hard-hearted jerk
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Topic Author's Reply - May 10, 2014 - 10:16am PT
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Madbolter wrote: You liberals actually think that wealth redistribution is the answer, but we have decades of data proving that as you increase the tax rate, you actually reduce taxes paid.
I find this hilarious...the middle and lower classes don't have any wealth. It has all gone to the upper 5-10 percent.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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May 10, 2014 - 10:31am PT
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There are actually few people on ST that have been there and done that. For most of you, you're babble liberal theory and peddling "soft sympathy." I know first-hand what I'm talking about; so don't even start to accuse me of not knowing the "plight of the poor."
And yet you consider yourself smart enough to think that republicans will save us?
Liberal drivel?
You do indeed sound like a hard hearted bastard.
Be careful who you slap on the way up because you'll be meeting them again on the way down and they'll eat your greedy f*#king liver out.
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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May 10, 2014 - 10:32am PT
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From my admittedly limited view, it's not so much capitalism that is holding down wages as it is globalism: NAFTA, GATT, WTO, and all of the global trade agreements. American workers have ended up having to compete with laborers around the world, laborers who in some cases make less than a dollar a day.
American companies have to compete with companies sited in countries with little or no regulation: no EPA, Dept of Labor, no OSHA, just police to keep the hoards in line.
Consumers drive this dynamic by shopping for products based on price.
We live in a highly dynamic world. Adapt and thrive or remain static and decline.
For all of our worts and problems the USA is still the land of the free and home of the brave. We are still a remarkably innovative, entrepreneurial, and industrious country that is brimming with opportunity.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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May 10, 2014 - 10:33am PT
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Dropline I think you have hit on a major component of the problem.. Perot was correct about the Clinton FTA's.. Perot knew it as clear as the sun coming up in the morning. "That giant sucking sound"
also..
Redistribution of wealth is something that is inevitable it happens always and every second of the day. Wealth moves around all over the place.. what a dumb meaningless term.. "wealth redistribution"
Right now the system is weighted too far into redistributing it to the top 1/10 of a percent. Trickle down is a term that actually means FLOOD UP. A steadier flow both ways would be more equitable.
I suggest tweeking the system to something that works better for the vast majority and does not cause real harm to the top 1/10th percent.
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WBraun
climber
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May 10, 2014 - 10:34am PT
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Yes
America is mismanaged by idiots who have risen into power.
And we the sheep are driven by these morons .....
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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May 10, 2014 - 10:41am PT
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America is mismanaged by idiots who have risen into power.
I would say "placed in power". You place a politician of you choice into power by picking two of them.. one a democrat the other a republican then give them both enough campaign money that no one else can run against them.. You let the sheep pick which one of your two candidates get to be in office. This way you can pretend the system is a democratic republic. Talk about placebo of the masses.
Such a simple way to take over a government..Especially if you have millions of excess undertaxed wealth sitting around... surprised our founders did not think to protect us from it.
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WBraun
climber
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May 10, 2014 - 10:44am PT
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"placed in power"
Yes much better description.
Thanks bro .....
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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May 10, 2014 - 10:54am PT
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Redistribution of wealth on a global scale is what has been happening for decades with the free trade agreements. That "giant sucking sound " that Perot referred to as NAFTA in the 1992 presidential election.I know both parties participated but which advanced more agreements? It's not government by, for, and of the people its government by , fo r and of the career aristocracy. Want proof- look into the loopholes, exclusions, exemptions written into the sixty thousand pages of the tax code, look at the campaign donators to the perrenial candidates, look into the miraculous net worths of the supposed public servants. Want to know what happened with the middle class prosperity, well follow that giant sucking sound to distant shores. Despite all this with acceptance of personal responsibility and a little discipline pretty much all can achieve their goals in this country if not robbed of incentive by taking the easy road of government assistance. This is nothing more or less than the buying of votes and allegiance through theft of motivation.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Topic Author's Reply - May 10, 2014 - 11:24am PT
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"Let's not forget to thank President Obama for his part in increasing wealth (for the wealthy) faster than any President since Calvin Coolidge."
What part did he have in it???
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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May 10, 2014 - 12:10pm PT
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Stupid canookians is what I say. Babbling Bruce once again demonstrates his ability to highlight statements out of context then put his twisted interpretation on a discrete parcel of the whole. Listen you moron for the giant sucking sound. That is the noise of your decent paying canadian production jobs being siphoned off along with your resources in the coming pipelines to china and greater asia. Now crawl back into your cave and drown your miserable sorrows in that bottle always at your lips.
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okie
Trad climber
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May 10, 2014 - 12:12pm PT
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Maybe not 3rd...but a disgrace for such a wealthy nation.
We have more folks incarcerated than anywhere else. What's THAT about?
The fact that basic human rights for our own citizens is even a debatable issue speaks volumes.
Funny how the people who deny that class war exists can be its most vicious warriors.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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May 10, 2014 - 12:13pm PT
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Quit being a member of the perpetual complaining class. Cable news, talk radio, blah, blah, blah.
Complainers are the morons. Complainers are the sheep.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 10, 2014 - 12:22pm PT
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Maybe if Americans didn't insist upon living beyond their means we wouldn't
be having this 'discussion'. It wouldn't hurt, either, to learn the word 'save'.
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FredC
Boulder climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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May 10, 2014 - 01:46pm PT
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I asked a question a long time upstream and I'm not absolutely sure we have solved this one yet. You would think that after this many posts we would have things clarified.
I think that the increased concentration of wealth at the top leads to increased power there as well. That seems like it will in turn lead to even more separation of classes and this seems kind of like it is going to be hard to stop or change. My background as a poor person growing up makes me think that more taxes might help. I think the last time the concentration of wealth got this extreme we had a "great depression" or something.
How do we make this better? If we can't solve this on supertopo then I might get really worried.
(Hi Randy!)
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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May 10, 2014 - 01:50pm PT
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John posted As to the substance of the article, we've had enough debate elsewhere. I'll simply say this: when top marginal rates were confiscatory, taxpayers engaged in numerous business activities whose sole purpose was to shelter income.
That's true. People used to figure out ways to get out of paying 70% or 90% income tax rates. Now they do the exact same thing to get out of paying 36% income tax rates. In a world where 10% is considered an excellent investment, they will do it at basically any income tax rate.
John continued Not surprisingly, the share of taxes paid by those with the highest incomes rose.
That's sort of true! And by that logic we should have a 0.1% tax rate so that we have 100% tax participation and no actual tax revenue. Success!
John finished But that's irrelevant to the politics of envy.
The politics of every dime of productivity increase by working Americans in the last 15+ years going to the top 1%? That's really your definition of "envy?" It's actually worse than that seeing as wages relative to inflation have actually decreased in that amount of time for middle class Americans so the 1%ers are taking all the productivity gains PLUS the inflationary gains.
Of course to someone who believes in the Just World Fallacy it's a lot easier to write that all off to "envy" instead of identifying a structural flaw in our economic and social models. The Greatest Generation's success was in no small way grounded in robust government programs, a high minimum wage and strong union participation...all things which are completely ignored in the current debate.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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May 10, 2014 - 02:19pm PT
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FredC
you are absolutely correct.
Of course no one dared call the 2008 meltdown a Depression.
Although in fact it severely depressed the economies of all the western democracies, Japan, Australia.
We're just now coming out of it, after 5 years of Obama.
The Great Depression lasted 5 years before significant recovery started. Largely thanks to FDR's "liberal" New Deal.
A brief history of 30 miles Skyline Blvd in the Santa Cruz mts.
Started by a developer it was built southwards until it reached Hwy 9, about 1928 when thanks to the Great Depression the state ran out of money. In about 1932, New Deal money became available and it was cut through the most difficult terrain (past Castle Rock State Park) to Black Rd. Right past my place. The New Deal money dried up and the final 8 miles from Black Rd to Hwy 17 was never finished. It remains less than 2 lanes wide to this day.
Fast Forward to 2008. A much needed pavement re-surfacing is in progress on the southernmost 12 miles. State again runs out of money when the economy collapses. Work stops about 1 mile south of my place.
A few months later Obama creates the American Rehabilitation And Recovery Act for "shovel ready projects" which the Republitards have maligned to this day. Within 6 months the remaining 10 miles is completed.
All the local Firesafe Councils which had shovel ready projects in 2008 (all approvals complete) finally got funding through ARRA money in 2011. My FSC finished our two projects last summer. Area wide, probably 35 miles of overgrown roadways were cleared.
My FSC's 2 projects spent over $150K on 5 miles. All of it locally.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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May 10, 2014 - 03:43pm PT
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The 2008 "meltdown" was a culmination of bad gov't policy coupled with bank greed. The housing meltdown was created by Congress, and the banks tried to take advantage of this in the short-term.
Mortagage-backed securities. This is what happens when gov't gets involved in the private-sector.
As for the banks involved? They should've been allowed to crash. You bet poorly, you lose. No gov't bailouts.
Same for the homeowners. No bailouts.
Look where we are now.
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