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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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CALIFORNIA | LOCAL
California chief justice urges reevaluating death penalty
December 24, 2011 | By Maura Dolan, Los Angeles Times
Chief Justice Tani Cantil-Sakauye, who heads the state's judicial branch and its highest court, said in an interview that the death penalty is no longer effective in California and suggested she would welcome a public debate on its merits and costs. During an interview in her chambers, as she prepared to close up shop for the holidays, the Republican appointee and former prosecutor made her first public statements about capital punishment a year after she took the helm of the state's judiciary and at a time when petitions are being gathered for an initiative to abolish the death penalty.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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http://articles.latimes.com/2011/mar/25/opinion/la-oe-mccartin-death-penalty-20110325
Second thoughts of a 'hanging judge'
In 1978, the first time Jerry Brown was governor of California, he appointed me to a judgeship in the Superior Court of Orange County. It was a gutsy move on his part, a liberal Democrat naming a right-wing Republican to the bench. I served there until 1993, after which I sat on assignment on death cases throughout California.
During that time, I presided over 10 murder cases in which I sentenced the convicted men to die. As a result, I became known as "the hanging judge of Orange County," an appellation that, I will confess, I accepted with some pride.
Had I known then what I know now, I would have given Alcala and the others the alternative sentence of life in prison without the possibility of parole. Had I done that, Robin's mother, Marianne, would have been spared the pain of 30 appeals and writs and retrial. She could have dealt then and there with the fact that her daughter's killer would be shut away, never again to see a day of freedom, and gone on to put her life together. And the people of California would have not have had to pay many millions of tax dollars in this meaningless and ultimately fruitless pursuit of death.
I watch today as Gov. Brown wrestles with the massive debt that is suffocating our state and hear him say he doesn't want to "play games." But I cringe when I learn that not playing games amounts to cuts to kindergarten, cuts to universities, cuts to people with special needs — and I hear no mention of the simple cut that would save hundreds of millions of dollars, countless man-hours, unimaginable court time and years of emotional torture for victim's family members waiting for that magical sense of "closure" they've been falsely promised with death sentences that will never be carried out.
There is actually, I've come to realize, no such thing as "closure" when a loved one is taken. What family members must find is reconciliation with the reality of their loss, and that can begin the minute the perpetrator is sent to a prison he will never leave. But to ask them to endure the years of being dragged through the courts in pursuit of the ultimate punishment is a cruel lie.
It's time to stop playing the killing game. Let's use the hundreds of millions of dollars we'll save to protect some of those essential services now threatened with death. Let's stop asking people like me to lie to those victim's family members.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Lynne (if you're still here)
Sorry, I did misinterpret your post:Can you imagine society in general with many of these perps at large and doing whatever they will and want? Would that happen if there was no accountabiliity for their actions? Jess asking..... Accountability, prison, restitution, re-habilitation are all indeed essential. I do not deny there are truly evil people in this world. I also don't doubt many murders entirely intentional and often for the most venal of reasons. The "evil doers" (to borrow a distasteful phrase) must be held to account. Many must be locked away for life. Many can be rehabilitated.
Capital punishment is not the way. That turns society into an evil doer.
As ye sow so shall ye reap cuts both ways.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Death Penalty is a deterrent to future crimes....at least as far as the recently executed is concerned Life in prison is also a reliable deterrent. With the possibility of commutation if it is later proven he was falsely convicted, either through mistake, perjured testimony or prosecutorial misconduct.
Some small number can even be rehabilitated.
But hey, it's easier to just kill them. Then we don't have to deal with such distasteful questions.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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What might not be clear unless said, is that these sentiments are EXACTLY the kind of thoughts that murderers have. So, if you want to know how that sort of thinking and behavior is created, that's it.
These would be the same sentiments that you would find if you walked into a prison, and asked convicted criminals. Law of the street. Frontier Justice.
The guy in question kidnapped and raped a girl, shot her twice - non fatally with a shotgun - then buried her alive. I'm not able to comprehend whatever sentiments a guy like that could have.
Another note, according to an article in the Daily Beast lethal injections are the most botched form of execution used in this century.
I used to be against capital punishment, but now, especially in cases like this I think the closure it brings to the family of the victim, if nothing else, makes it appropriate. I do think we could come up with a reliable method though.
EDit: You're "Hanging Judge" post is hard to disagree with. The whole process - when there is absolute certainty, as there was in the case being discussed, should be carried out quickly.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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But hey, it's easier to just kill them. Then we don't have to deal with such distasteful questions.
As defined by this case, it's not quite so simple.
I'd like to know how many of the anti-capital punishment crowd here has lost a loved one to violent crime.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Hanging also works just fine- NOT. It may be the most prolonged and horrific. Excepting of course this week's hideous travesty.
History is rife with cases of conscious men and women struggling for many minute from the end of the noose. One notorious case led to England ending the death penalty except for treason about 1960.
Does an atheist have to dig up the Bible?
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Romans 12:19, King James version.
Justice and retribution are not about vengeance in a civilized society.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Life in prison is also a reliable deterrent. With the possibility of commutation if it is later proven he was falsely convicted, either through mistake, perjured testimony or prosecutorial misconduct.
If we're going to accept that abolishing the DP is a good idea because some people may be on death row because of mistakes in the system and those mistakes may eventually be corrected, we should also accept that some people who get life in prison will continue to be able to commit crimes while in prison. If you say that won't happen, we can construct a perfect system that prevents all prisoners from escaping (or committing serious crimes, including murder, even if they don't escape), you're applying a double standard.
I don't really disagree with what Ken M posted above about the death penalty, as it's currently conducted, being a colossal waste of money, and that being a good reason to end it (although I still support it).
I'd like to see the most heinous of killers (such as the OK scumbag) get the DP after a fair, but efficient, trial and appeals, but that's not the world we live in. Chalk it up to a crappy judicial system (in some respects).
Edit regarding hanging:
HT--we're all climbers (I think)--if you can't figure out some way to use ropes and gravity to cause a relatively quick and painless death, I don't think you're trying hard enough. Apparently some people don't like the fact that hanging can cause decapitation, but so what, that's just aesthetics.
Not get too weird, but if you can't think of a way, using all the tools at our industrial society's disposal, to reliably, quickly, and relatively painlessly (say relative compared to how most of us will die, which will be exactly pleasant), I have to accuse you of a failure of imagination.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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you're applying a double standard. Absolutely not. If they commit another crime send them back for a longer time.
If there's any indication they'll commit another capital crime, keep them behind bars.
No solution is perfect.
The Death Penalty is by far the least perfect. For all the obvious reasons.
I'd rather have seen Timothy McVeigh still rotting in prison. Reliving his crimes and contemplating his future. As for ever letting him out? Obviously not.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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"Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."
Maybe The Lord gotteth His vengeance by setting up this particular bad guy for a prolonged execution.
How do we know God wasn't looking down at the moment of execution, and knowing what this guy did to earn his big day, didn't somehow work His wonders to make sure the condemned did not get an easy exit?
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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you're applying a double standard.
Absolutely not. If they commit another crime send them back for a longer time.
Whoa--I thought we were talking about people who were getting life without parole as an alternative to the DP. Are you saying that's off the table too? Otherwise, sending people who are sentenced to life w/o parole to a "longer time" doesn't make much sense.
(I've predicted that once the DP was abolished, the libs will next attack life w/o parole. I've already been shown to have been at least partially correct--that's already happened for juvenile offenders.)
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Kristoffer
climber
Coronado, California
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"When you kill with your own hands there is a reverence. There's no reverence in what you do."
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Chaz
if you see the Hand Of God in execution where was he at the time of the murder?
Those bleeding heart Norwegians. Regarding mass murderer Anders Brevik
He was sentenced to 21 years in prison, in a form of preventive detention that required a minimum of 10 years incarceration and the possibility of an extension of that incarceration for as long as he is deemed a danger to society. This is the maximum penalty in Norway; he will likely remain in prison for the remainder of his life I'd say 21 years max is insufficient. However note my underline. He's unlikely to ever get out.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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High Traverse writes:
"Chaz
if you see the Hand Of God in execution where was he at the time of the murder?"
I dunno.
Maybe He wasn't looking down then.
Or He could have been distracted. Maybe someone sneezed, and some ass-hole said "God Bless You" at the exact wrong time.
The finite cannot comprehend the infinite.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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The simple answer is that there are certainly humane ways to kill people. Most doctors could tell you what they are. And people have pretty well figured this out for assisted suicide. Not to mention the thousands of pets that are put down humanely at end of life by caring owners. The biology of a dog and a man isn't that much different. A big shot of heroin would work very well.
Problem is that doctors for the most part won't participate in executions...something about violating their oath about doing no harm. And some of the best drugs are manufactured in countries that don't support the death penalty. So you've got this being done by people who aren't experts with less-than-ideal ingredients.
The death penalty is a separate argument. This guy seems to have been a pretty bad dude, and if society is going to do this, he would have been pretty high on the list of deserving candidates. But I'm in the camp of this being a bad idea. Too many potential mistakes and problems with the process and not enough benefit.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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blahblah
I'm fine with life in prison without possibility of parole. There are some who truly deserve it. I could rattle off a list of a dozen without trying.
if you can't think of a way, using all the tools at our industrial society's disposal, to reliably, quickly, and relatively painlessly (say relative compared to how most of us will die, which will be exactly pleasant) and Lockett on Tuesday?
and the 1/25 who are innocent?
EDIT: Maybe He wasn't looking down then. So he's neither omniscient nor omnipotent?
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jstan
climber
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On this thread and in discussions of this subject there are people of four kinds.
1 Those saying they want humane treatment of the condemned
2. Those saying they want humane treatment of the executioner
3. Those who want something for themselves
4. Those who want us not to know what they really want
That about covers it and we can expect the conversation to lead nowhere.
That said let me examine the subject in light of the points above.
I watched a movie concerning a Russian serial killer who killed somewhere over 50 young girls. At the end of the movie we see the condemned walking downstairs to a cellar. The camera pans downward as would the head of the condemned to see a tiled floor and a floor drain; just as the officer says, "Do not look back." All of this was unexpected.
What did I feel? Something like, "Alright! Well deserved. It's even efficient."
I personally was getting something out of this. But to let this affect my opinion is to subordinate an important social decision to my personal attitude. This is a poor basis for making decisions on important social matters. I would be no better than a manufacturer of ammunition who votes for war based upon the revenue he might expect.
The movie's scenario places a very heavy burden on the executioner. An unsustainable one I fear.
If the condemned believed he was merely being moved to another cell, it is at least arguable that this approach minimized the stress he encountered.
I have already raised the point that we really need to have few people condemned to death when our jurisprudence system is flawed, as our's surely is.
I have already expressed the view that our propensity, with very little thought, to assume that what we think has to be right because we are thinking it, is a primary flaw in our makeup. The need to reach a rapid decision via our amygdala is not present in most of the things we do today.
We need to move out of the cave and begin living in today's world.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2014 - 03:09pm PT
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The simple answer is that there are certainly humane ways to kill people. Most doctors could tell you what they are. And people have pretty well figured this out for assisted suicide. Not to mention the thousands of pets that are put down humanely at end of life by caring owners. The biology of a dog and a man isn't that much different. A big shot of heroin would work very well.
We need the stats so the OD approach can be compared with the guillotine.
As I noted above, the lead up for executions is the same in all cases as far as I can see. We're going to take you into another room and hook you up and kill you. [In the case of the guillitine], it will be over in two one hundredths of a second.
Additionally, why don't the states use the "big shot of heroin" approach? I have the feeling it's not as straightfoward as it may seem.
That about covers it and we can expect the conversation to lead nowhere.
Most of the ST forum in a nutshell.
But since talk is cheap, is there behavior so malevolent that it's perpetrator in effect waives his/her claim on being treated humanely?
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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How about hands and feet first into a sausage-maker, with a close-up camera to get the facial expressions. Then auction off the sausage parts (and promotional fees, advertising, cross-marketing opportunities for other sausage brands, etc.) and give the proceeds to the victims.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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There's that pesky 8th Amendment in the Bill Of Rights
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted. Do you suppose the authors (Madison as amended by a House committee) meant that to be ignored?
What is really meant has been argued for the following 223 years.
great sausage idea. How will you market it? Who's your target customer base----Right Wing Whackos?
I'll invest.
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