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Degaine
climber
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Jul 11, 2006 - 10:55am PT
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Do you like answering your own questions? I would say that's a definite yes.
Have you been watching too many Rumsfeld press conferences? Very likely.
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Dusty
Trad climber
up & down highway 99
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Jul 11, 2006 - 11:19am PT
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So MM, in conclusion, are you upset with these countries because they voted their conscience and the US wasn't able to buy their votes? Pretty moronic...
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 11, 2006 - 12:04pm PT
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"Senator McCarthy was upset about the selling of the Republic of China into the arms of the Communists. No wonder you hate him! "
It figures that a Coulter-lover would approve of labeling anyone who disagrees with right wing dogma a Commie, America-hater or other such nonsense.
Marshall did more to keep Western Europe Commie-free in the 40s and 50s than just about anyone. Ever hear of the Marshall Plan? Probably not, because I'm sure Coulter didn't mention it. But that rat McCarthy sure felt like it was appropriate to publicly lump Marshall in with some kind of vast anti-America Commie conspiracy. No, Joe wasn't content to simply criticize and campaign against Truman's China policies: he went a step further and labeled those who he disagreed with as Commies and used fear to bolster his political standing and silence opponents.
It's the exact same stupidity that Coulter and other reactionary morons use today and sadly, it still works.
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Mountain Man
Trad climber
Outer space
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 11, 2006 - 12:36pm PT
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Moron, idiot, McCarthy idolizer, Coulter lover.
No wonder you can't be taken seriously. You're like little kids on the playground.
I notice that no one disputes that McCarthy was right about Communists in our government. The Soviet Union's own documents showed he was dead on. No idolization from my point of view, I just object to liberal rewriting of history.
But all you can do is call names. It's laughable.
As for Ann Coulter, she is brilliant. No wonder you demonize her, as she strikes fear into weak liberal minds. Then the name calling starts. I expect to be called a fag soon. Oh right, that was last year.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 11, 2006 - 12:47pm PT
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I called you a "Coulter lover" because you'd expressed admiration for her. Is that a bad label or a good label? It seemed accurate when I wrote it.
So, Marshall and Acheson were commies too, huh? Sure, Joe correctly identified some Commies, but he sure nailed a lot of people who were totally innocent.
"No wonder you demonize her, as she strikes fear into weak liberal minds. "
And you call us name-callers? Coulter is the master name-caller--hell, it's easier than discussing issues and sells it more books. Most people polled recently do not like Bush and would actually prefer to see Democrats control congress. Are they Commies too? Do they hate America?
"I notice that no one disputes that McCarthy was right about Communists in our government."
I just did. See the numerous Marshall and Acheson comments above.
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Mountain Man
Trad climber
Outer space
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 11, 2006 - 01:01pm PT
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So there weren't hundreds of communists in the Roosevelt administration?
Yet Soviet documents twenty years later show McCarthy was right and you still deny it.
You seem to have a well entrenched ability to not see and not learn. I hope this doesn't manifest in other areas as well.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jul 11, 2006 - 01:04pm PT
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Amusingly MM, you support commies by being so vehemently pro-gitmo.
I don't like the thought of lining Fidel's pockets with US tax dollars, but evidently you do...
Way to use the 5 "D's" to avoid your plager issue...after telling people to "read before you shoot off" it looks like you still don't know the "Original Pledge". Or the "rest of" the snopes C and P. Maybe you missed the good stuff...
So it isn't just the Arab/Islamic states who consistently vote against the U.S. in the United Nations — pretty much the rest of the world does, too.
Cute stuff!...hey, isn't Mountain Man a Christian Hymnal?
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 11, 2006 - 01:05pm PT
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I said, "So, Marshall and Acheson were commies too, huh? Sure, Joe correctly identified some Commies, but he sure nailed a lot of people who were totally innocent."
Now, who is ignoring who? Still think Marshall and Acheson were commies?
How many other people did he recklessly "out"?
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jul 11, 2006 - 01:36pm PT
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Hey Degaine, stop being mean to me. What have I ever done against you? Sob, sob, sob ;-)
So somebody can stand up in Congress and make a speech. Does that mean that what is said in the speech is true and accurate?
Uh Rokjox, that should be:
Inigo Montoya: I hate waiting. I could give you my word as a Spaniard.
Man in Black (Wesley): No good. I've known too many Spaniards.
Great flick.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 11, 2006 - 04:31pm PT
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So Lois, you'd agree that the mice aren't completely to blame for coming in my house and making a hell.
and you've said plenty of time that you don't care if innocent people are killed in our retribution for 9-11 and haven't got much remorse that we even attacked a country that had nothing to do with 9-11.
So why is it so surprising that innocent people were killed on 9-11 as collateral damage in response to anger about US policy? Pretty much the same. Innocent people being struck cause others are mad at their government.
Of course you think "We didn't do anything to them" but it's not true. We helped install Saddam, overthrew the government of Iran and supported Kings and dictators oppressing folks in those countries. If anybody did a tenth of what's been done over there to us here, we'd nuke em.
Unfortunately we only see, hurt from and value our own wounds and gloss over everyone else's grievences.
I'm not saying 9-11 was right, I'm saying it's all wrong
Peace
Karl
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 11, 2006 - 06:18pm PT
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Lois, Karl never actually defended the 9/11 perps and in fact, said that their actions were wrong.
This gets back to the whole "Why do they hate us?" question. Their violence against civilians was not justified. However, deep down there are some pretty good reasons for many middle easterners to hate the U.S. It's an ugly fact that we've propped up several very despotic regimes to ensure we receive a proper supply of oil--Saddam being one, the Shah another, and the Saudi Royal family another (but not the only ones). Every single one of those guys is a brutal, murdering, repressive son of a bitch and we either supplied arms to them, directly assisted in their ascension to power, or gave them money, or all of the above--human rights be damned. We have the blood of a lot of Middle Easterners on our hands.
Was that a nice, democratic thing for the U.S. to do?
As much as some of the righties claim to not care what other countries think, or that even bringing up such facts is un-American, we simply must come clean about our past misdeeds in the region and do things differently in the future if we are going to solve our terrorism problem.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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Jul 11, 2006 - 06:44pm PT
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"The motivators of the Muslim world have much bigger goals than living in peace in the middle east."
Fatty,
Seems they are a good study of the United States Government, aren't they. ;-)
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 11, 2006 - 07:03pm PT
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Lois,
Would you not hate the U.S. if they installed governments that killed your friends and family? In some cases, even remove your country's democratically elected government? That is not a justification or a rational for killing civilians. But if another country did that to you, would you hate them? Your thug example is inapplicable. In this case, the U.S. wasn't simply shooting its mouth off, but killing civilians. It doesn't justify terrorists killing more people, but we shouldn't exactly be surprised when someone decides to get even.
If we want to stop terrorism, we have to stop fueling their anger. And spreading despotism instead of democracy is not the way to do that. Nor is it just.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Jul 11, 2006 - 07:31pm PT
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hey LEB why are you goin' after degaine when it was i who alluded to roosting chickens?
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Jul 11, 2006 - 07:43pm PT
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"I don't think collateral damage is an appropriate concept here. Let me clarify if I am understanding you correctly. Are you saying that you feel the attack on the WTC was justified? Do you feel that the persons responsible these events acted appropriately? Well, we know Churchill holds these views. Do you also hold with this viewpoint?"
well what should we call it "THE COST OF FREEDOM".
no not justified, but understandable.
persons who were responsible acted predictably.
first you compared me to ann the hag in drag coulter, and now equating me w/ mr. churchill. i am honored.
there is hope.
hope your not there when the roosting happens again.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 11, 2006 - 11:26pm PT
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Hey Jody,
Despite all the BS here, I'm sure you're a good guy. Have a nice night.
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Mountain Man
Trad climber
Outer space
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 11, 2006 - 11:38pm PT
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Jody is a very good guy. I've even climbed with him, albeit in the rain.
Like I've said, I believe everyone here has decent motives. At times, a lack of intllectual honesty and respect for others, but so it goes.
Good night and good luck.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 11, 2006 - 11:44pm PT
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You too Mountain Man.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 11, 2006 - 11:53pm PT
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Don't worry. If you understood my post Lois, you wouldn't think it was out of line.
The Golden Rule is True. You can have all the double standards you like, but to think our actions are without consequence is a failure of conservatives as well as liberals
And of course the innocent people of Iraq and New York and elsewhere suffer for the sins of their leaders
peace
Karl
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Anastasia
Trad climber
Near a mountain, CA
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Jul 11, 2006 - 11:59pm PT
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Dude, I just read the beginning of this post and had to respond. If me, myself and I were confronted with the same ballot questions...
I would have voted against the United States 90 percent of the time. Then again, I don't have a political agenda to make nice with the super power like they do.
Politics is ugly business that uses votes as payments for stuff. A country will only vote for something if they or their political leader benefits. You never say yes for free.
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