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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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It's very questionable whether somebody's beliefs are none of our business, if they have gone to the trouble of expressing them.
If you want your beliefs private, don't tell them.
Supertopo is full of debate about beliefs, regarding bolting, ethics, style and all kinds of preferences.
Belief in this world can translate into all kinds of things that affect us all, Dispensationalists who believe a great war is needed in the mid-east. If somebody believes I"m going to Hell for an eternity of torture, it can affect our relationship.
My intention is to love everyone, but the subject of what people believe is obviously significant and the main reason I see for people avoiding it are fear of judgement and discomfort with beliefs and our differences as a whole
Peace
Karl
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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well, dmt, I don't disagree with any of that.
at the end of the day, one's either stood on the sidelines or gotten involved, to each their own I guess.
scientists, like knife handlers, are only tool users, for better and worse
we'll see by century's end how some things have turned out, as it's already beyond the 11th hour in many a venue. by century's end? yeah, I plan on being around, lol!
One can have a noble belief and the implementation plan of Stalin
for sure,
so may the winds of fate be with us and not against us.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Then there is the act, the act of destroying someone's belief -
Look, if Rashid's belief is that the 12th Imam wants Israel wiped off the earth before he returns and this belief prompts him to give one million bucks every year to Hezbollah, then it needs to be destroyed. And if you want to sit on the fence and just observe things, and say "it matters not to me" that's your choice of course. I don't like the fact that evolution unfolds in fits and starts either, that it's so inefficient, often blind and ruthless, but it is what it is.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Now that's rich you calling me out on a lack of discrimination, lol!
Your post is clear but your reasoning once again is a wee-bit choppy. Religions make a mess of beliefs, their nature and their role in our lives. Beliefs matter. They are not inconsequential. They are the best predictor of behavior. That is the point that you fail to note.
Here's your error, plain as day.
it is none of our business to evaluate someone's ELSES beliefs
Sure it is. When they translate to action or behavior that is injurious, deleterious, counterproductive in community or society.
I could nip pick this apart, with all of it's silly pronouncements and so forth, but where you totally loose your way is in your fictitious beliefs per the power of beliefs and ideas. This issues from a fundamental misunderstanding about psychology, which is the systematic study of human behavior.
The way you have it figured, Fruity, is that person ingests information, preferably scientific facts and figures that are "proven" correct, and which in mind fashion their beliefs which drive their behaviors. This is all very logical - and very wrong. It leads you to the obsessional dashing of symbolic religious doctrines believing that because some people take these things as literal truths, they in turn develop beliefs and act based on said beliefs. The cause is the thought distortion (false belief), and the effect is the whacky behavior.
But in fact the vast majority of behavior is driven by a combination of instinct/experience. Next up the ladder of importance is feelings. And finally, thoughts and beliefs - which are by far the least powerful driver per behavior.
You've heard it said many times: Knowledge availed us nothing.
What that means, and it's been proven over and over and over again, is that even the most profound insight into a problem or a behavior often has little to no effect on changing the behavior. If this were not so, psychoanalysis would be the most effective therapy in the world, per behavior modification. But of course all you end up with is a well analyzed problem and little change in behavior or feeling tones. The truth is that we have to act our way into feeling differently about things. We can rarely think our way there, and it is always a very inefficient way to effect change because thinking is so weak per behavior modification.
Acting gives us direct experiences which is what drives behavior. For instance, is South Africa they were educating the white folk about blacks, till the whites had a firm understanding about the blacks being every bit as human as the whites. But nothing changed till said white folks went and stayed with the blacks and had direct experiences of their humanity. "Humanity" went from being a belief of concept or idea to a plain and demonstrable fact of life. Behavior chanced accordingly.
Conversely, people growing up with and directly experiencing dire poverty are apt to have financial insecurities regaredless of what they "know" about having a fat bank account and a solid job.
And so far as educating people with scientific facts and figures and having them act in a more rational and humane way, we know more facts now than ever before and we're still bombing the sh#t out of the place and turning to fat turds like Rush L. for political advice. The problem, more often than not, is the instinctual energy of aggression, and our lack of having workable strategies to channel it effectively. The religious doctrines you so ignorantly defame in many cases provided the container and mythology to check aggression - not perfectly, for sure. But all of our information has not moved up one inch forward on the moral or behavioral front.
More later.
JL
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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There will be no Atheists on Judgement Day . . .
John.1:1 -14 (KJV)
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[4] In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
[5] And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
[6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
[7] The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
[8] He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
[9] That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
[10] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
[11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
[12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
"God has given him a name which is above every name – that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord…" Philippians 2:9-11.
Revelations 20:11 – 15 , 21:1 – 7 (KJV)
[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev.21
[1] And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
[2] And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
[3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
[4] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
[5] And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
[6] And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
[7] He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
King of Kings: Every Knee Will Bow, Every Tongue Confess
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIlXWOnbTlM
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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That's because there will be no judgment day, just another glancing blow from an asteroid.
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bit'er ol' guy
climber
the past
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All
you
need to know
is right here
enjoy th truth
you have time
and it's free
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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All supertacoians you need to ask yourselves why we allow the same few people turn posts into their personal babble concerning their own opinion then bash those that come with facts opposing their personal opinion. We must rise up and shout to the world..."We are not going to take this anymore" Put these avatars in their place...if they post...leave it..let it die. The original post is the most important anyway. Die you imperial bastards...we will never, ever quit.
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jstan
climber
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Here on ST we have had heart felt and self assured proclamations that this or that religious group “are not christian". Now we have even had a presidential candidate deliver his edict that Mormons "are not christian".
When the US invaded Iraq did the Sunni and Shia unite to repel a hated aggressor? No they did not. They took the opportunity to break into each other’s homes at night so as to kill their neighbors in their beds. This by religious groups who split off from christ’s teachings only 700 years after christ. And who retained many of the stories and texts of their original religion.
Beginning with Nixon’s southern strategy for regaining power one of our parties undertook a joining of politics and religion. If you look at our current news you see no difference between politics and religion. Go against the prophet and you will be stoned. Even Congress persons have had to apologise to Rush Limbaugh for voicing positions that did not agree with his sacred text.
When religions are practiced in this way, cultural fractionation and collapse result. Consider. Now we even have "republicans" and "conservatives." In time, between even these two there will also come slaughter in the dark.
When Nixon climbed onto the back of this tiger, he knew not what he did.
A person must first be a citizen of the whole. And a believer second.
We have got it backwards.
Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s.
Render unto God what is God’s.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
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Nope. Scientists create the knife and others wield it - and THAT is the fundamental problem with implementation. The ideologues mostly get other people to implement and suffer the consequences
uh Teller, Oppenheimer ... The Manhatten Project.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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jstan has it. Divide and rule isn't the way of democracy, especially when the division is based on religion.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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One of the great things about climbing is that out on the sharp end, questions about whether or not Mary was a Virgin didn't count for anything. It was always just me and a rock wall and everything else was immaterial.
Sometimes I can get that simple now, but it takes a while.
JL
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BDoog
Big Wall climber
SoCal
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 8, 2012 - 04:21pm PT
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However, I believe the evidence for Faith in GOD The Father, GOD The Son -- Jesus Christ, and GOD The Holy Ghost is overwhelming.
You throw the word evidence around in a clever way. Of course there's evidence that people have faith. Is there evidence that a fatherless savior son died for our sins? No.
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Truthdweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Glory to God for you Klimmer!
Ceaser: 0
God: Eternity
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Gene
climber
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I loathe the ‘us versus them’ aspect of these discussions. No matter if you are an ‘us’ or a ‘them.’
jstan - good post. The marriage of religion and politics goes back forever. Sad. For a great example of that dubious relationship, let me remind you of the Battle Hymn of the Republic. How many thousands did that tune get killed?
g
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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If there is a God/god, no one needs to defend him.
Re: Alex, he's a young'un. A person can learn much in life if they care to.
lynne
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Gene
climber
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Dingus,
We disagree on much but still agree on a lot. Our disagreements haven’t diminished my respect for you and, hopefully, likewise. We are both part of the same tribe.
At least in this life. ;-)
g
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Klimmer, 72% of the members of the Academy of Sciences have no belief in a personal god, 7% believe in one and the rest are agnostics.
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