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discsinthesky
climber
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Oct 13, 2011 - 12:46pm PT
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I guess I was responding to hunger pains specifically. But think about exercise. The pains of exercise are enough to deter many from doing anything remotely active. Its a negative feedback cycle. As one gets less fit, it becomes increasingly more difficult/painful to become fit again, adding more inertia.
I think people naturally try to attain a set level of comfort. However, I think that level of comfort is largely based upon your realm of experience. For instance if you have never known a full stomach I doubt the hunger pain is quite as strong as someone who has eaten full meals their entire life. But then again, I think most things are mental...it's all about what you are familiar with and your expectations IMO.
EDIT:
Perhaps this is marginally related, but I have heard of a study that looked into the effect of natural birth vs. c-section on the baby. I guess they had found that natural birth promoted the release of certain hormones to allow the baby deal with the stress. That pathway was absent in the c-section baby, and they found later in life that the c-section babies were less capable of dealing with stress. Interesting stuff, haven't gotten around to finding the article yet though...
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Archie Richardson
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
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Oct 13, 2011 - 01:02pm PT
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SteveA - I have read Barry Sears and agree with most of his concepts - 40:30:30 and small frequent meals. And Atkins, for that matter. Where Atkins fell down was his use of low quality fat sources - pork rinds and the like. (BTW, Wikipedia has a good synopsis of the history of lo-carb diets, starting in 1797!!)
Mike - I also find it useful to adjust my carbohydrate intake according to the quantity and intensity of exercise. When couch-bound, I try to restrict carbs.
Hey, some of today's best climbers are on vegan and other hi-carb diets....I'm just an old dude trying to keep climbing a few more years and "primal" is what works best for me.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Oct 13, 2011 - 02:57pm PT
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Locker, I think I have mentioned this before and maybe you are already past this stuff, but if you haven't you should look through the work of Dr Weston Price, and read Mark Sisson's Primal Blueprint (which is sort of a modern presentation of Price's ideas.)
Of course a lot of what these guys preach; get almost all your sugars and carbs from fruits and veggies, eating foods which are high in saturated fats, no processed foods, etc., flies in the face of what most Doc's and nutritionionists recommend, especially the fats part.
All I can say is that it works for me. My system knows what to do with fat. It burns it, at a steady rate. I remember when I first comitted to the primal diet I went through a period of a couple of weeks of very low energy. The hike to Suicide Rock felt like a mountaineering epic. Then my system figured it out. There are not going to be any more refined sugars and carbs, and I'd better start doing something with all this energy rich fat and protien that's here. For me the results have been excellent.
YMMV.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 13, 2011 - 04:34pm PT
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I try to eat nutrient dense foods. Fish, poultry, nuts, meat for protein, iron, good fat etc. Fruits and veggies for vitamins, fiber.
I've cut down on my grains/starches. They can add a lot of calories without a lot of nutrients. But as mentioned if I have a long aerobic day coming up I'll add some because complex carbs are a great source of energy.
I've minimized refined sugars, bad fats, because they are empty calories. But I'll have a cheat meal once a week and enjoy some comfort foods.
So I do the cave man diet, because it just makes sense to me. I don't really notice much difference in energy or how I feel no matter what I eat.
Anecdotally I notice I get hungrier more often when I'm eating more. It's like my body gets used to higher amounts of calories and wants it all the time. When I'm eating less I can go longer in between meals without getting hungry. So it's a feedback loop that means the more you eat the more your body wants to eat, for me anyway.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Oct 13, 2011 - 04:36pm PT
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Sure, I would agree that a lot of things you can get used to. If I go from a NorCal winter to 90 degree heat, I suffer. But by the end of summer, I don't feel like I am suffering walking around the central valley on a 98 degree day.
Unfortunately, all too often I have gotten used to walking around with a headache and/or migrain. But it doesn't matter how "used" to it I am. I can say without a doubt I am less irritable (and far more pleasant to be around and far more productive at work) when I don't have a headache.
Someone who has never known a full stomach might not be as distracted by hunger pains, I'll give you that. But somebody who is calorie short is going to have less energy and probably a weakened immune system. And as other have pointed out, the vast majority of kids are comming out of childhood with their bodies conditioned for a very unhealthy life style. As an adult, you don't get to the check the "never had full stomach" box.
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Josh Nash
Social climber
riverbank ca
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Oct 13, 2011 - 04:41pm PT
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even weird al let himself go:
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monolith
climber
berzerkly
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Oct 13, 2011 - 05:30pm PT
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Nuts are kinda crappy food, since they are rarely raw and too easy to overdo it. And high saturated fat diets to treat diabetes? Wow. Price must be rolling in his grave to see people distorting his message like this. Diabetics are already at higher risk for heart attacks, pouring in saturated fat is crazy.
Replacing sat fat with polyunsaturated fat lowers heart desease risk http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100322211831.htm
Don't forget Vitamin D, Locker. Crucial for many important functions. Probably have to take a supplement considering where you live and winter approaching. Lots of good D3 sprays out now.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Oct 13, 2011 - 06:26pm PT
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Mono, Im not a doctor or pretending to be one. Just suggesting some interesting reading, not a treatment.
There is a pattern of diabetes in my family on both sides. Most of my life my blood sugar has been all over the place. I would be fine one minute, feel a bit of hunger the next and bonk totally, mentally and physically if I didn't eat right then. This affected my climbing from the standpoint that on one occasion I could climb really well and on another not so. Consistency has been a problem for me.
I would get two fasting blood tests in a row and the results would be at the opposite ends of the scale. My Doc said this was a serious warning sign.
A holistic person pointed me to the Weston Price research and Sisson's Primal Blueprint. I got on the program almost two years ago and my life is changed. No more spiky and crashing blood sugar. My last two blood panels have been optimal. My total cholesterol is on the high side but the various ratios of lipids and triglycerides are spot on (and the neurologist likes the hig overall levels.) I just had a total cardio workup and a carotid IMT - I am at no risk for cardiovascular disease despite having total cholesterol over 200.
I'm just sharing my own personal experience, and I really doubt that Dr Price is rolling in his grave.
edit: Depresses the heck out of me to see Weird Al lookin' like that. I worked on some of his stuff in the 80s. Thought he was quite cool.
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monolith
climber
berzerkly
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Oct 13, 2011 - 06:35pm PT
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Yes, the link between cholesterol and heart disease is highly debated. But, the Harvard study does show a link between saturated fat and heart disease.
The Price institute also says limit fruits and vegies for your children and eat clay for cleansing.
http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/fuhrman_dietary_myths.htm
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hb81
climber
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Oct 13, 2011 - 06:50pm PT
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But as I've gotten older, I have found that if I don't keep my calories above a certain level, the number of headaches and migrains (yes, they are very different) I get skyrockets.
Hmmm... have you been checked for diabetes?
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Gal
Trad climber
a semi lucid consciousness
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Oct 13, 2011 - 07:41pm PT
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Ethics and Advertising cannot appear in the same space time continuum....and vice versa Yes, agree.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Oct 13, 2011 - 07:42pm PT
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The Price institute also says limit fruits and vegies for your children and eat clay for cleansing.
Yes things like that are why Sisson's work, which has some roots in the Price work but also is based on current leading adge research, is my guide. Note that I say guide, not bible...
Still, studying Prices findings is informative. He was way ahead of his time. Dr. Fuhrman (whos work I have read) makes an aggressive attack there but misresents the Price Foundations positions. Fuhrman is of course at the opposite end of the spectrum, and is running a big sales operation too.
What Price did was to visit indiginous cultures around the world. He had a set of standards which included infant mortality, longevity, dental health and bone structure. Among cultures which he found healthy, he looked for the commonalities of their diets. He found 11. His book is revealing.
edit: So if I come up with a product which would benefit a lot of people it would be unethical to advertise it???
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monolith
climber
berzerkly
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Oct 13, 2011 - 07:57pm PT
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Price was a pioneer of his time. But there was much he didn't know about the people he was studying. As Furhman notes, he really did not have all the info about longevity and infant mortality rates,endemic diseases, and infection. One man couldn't possibly do such an effective study on so many cultures. Sally Fallon has locked what he said 70+ years ago, and ignored much research done since then to push her agenda. Since he was observationally based, I doubt he'd agree with Fallon today.
Fallon runs a big sales organization as well, by selling her book and advertising space to the meat and dairy companies and having 'conferences' and membership dues. Notice the 'platinum' and 'gold' sponsors on her site. If we go by whether people receive money for what they do, we won't get very far.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 13, 2011 - 08:21pm PT
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Ok Slight retraction here. I do feel sympathy for many obese people. I often see one and feel so graced that I am not in that situation. there but for the grace of god go I. On the otherhand I do not buy many of the excuses and do believe that every day is in fact a new day and we can change when we really decide its the time for us to change..
I have my own personal demons, some I have licked and some not so much..
Food is some seriously addictive stuff. I will give it that.
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susu
Trad climber
East Bay, CA
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Oct 13, 2011 - 09:06pm PT
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Haven't read the thread thoroughly yet but fell into Peter H.'s post and had to post right away to thank you for that share!
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scuffy b
climber
dissected alluvial deposits, late Pleistocene
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Oct 13, 2011 - 09:11pm PT
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Yes, Peter's and Matisse's posts are worth repeated readings.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Oct 13, 2011 - 09:37pm PT
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Yes I just went back and read them again. Great posts both.
Peters' reference to the amazing non fiction book "Black Like Me" by John Griffin really hit home for me. That was a formative book in my high school years. My stepfather was a freedom rider, and racial equality and the struggles against segregation were everyday subjects at our dinner table.
Good fortune with your knee job, Peter! In rehab, if you do not learn something new about your body every visit, demand more of your therapists. Make sure they know who you are and be clear about your goals. Right now you might not be in your real body, so it is up to you to make sure they know this.
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Gal
Trad climber
a semi lucid consciousness
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Oct 13, 2011 - 10:06pm PT
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Good luck Peter-sounds like you have a good plan to get you through what has become a tough time.
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Archie Richardson
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
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Oct 14, 2011 - 08:33am PT
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Best of luck Peter.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 14, 2011 - 10:36am PT
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Interestingly, Bonnie Kamps has just had her right knee replaced too!
She is doing really well, and should be driving next week even. I think that would be less than a month, then, for her return to our California traffic. Her pain is really backing off and she is getting more optimistic by the day. It was hard to sleep through the night; I think she was getting just a couple of hours between ice packs; also the pain killers she was able to take, weren't that effective. She reports being able to get 110 degrees of bend now while the rest of her 'classmates' in physical therapy can only get 90 and their operations were earlier than hers.
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