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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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May 10, 2012 - 01:22am PT
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fattrad deleted his post.
Edit: the man has no balls or should explain why he deleted it.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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May 10, 2012 - 02:25am PT
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fattrad deleted his post.
Edit: the man has no balls or should explain why he deleted it.
Don't forget. He is wanna-be cop.
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hossjulia
Social climber
Eastside (of the Tetons)
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May 10, 2012 - 12:23pm PT
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^^^^UGTBFKM
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ME Climb
climber
Behind the Orange Curtain
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May 10, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
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We have talked about this case over and over since it happened. When we watched the video at work we were expecting "a smoking gun" or even anything unusual with the use of force. We all agreed we probably would not have phrased things like Ramos did but have all said some variation of "do as I say or you will get hurt!". There is no cop out there who hasnt said this. As fatty put it this is as close to a text book use of force you will ever see. What most people outside of law enforcement don't understand is that every use of force is ugly and violent. This incident is a horrible tragedy that could have happened to any officer in any town in the US. Every town has a "Kelly Thomas" that there cops deal with regularly. Some days they are cooperative and there are no issues other days they are shooting rounds at the aliens in there walls or fighting with every cop they can (true examples of one individual I regularly deal with). He is truly a bad from ending up in the hospital even though we take ever step we can to get him help
I was amazed that the cops were bound over. My opinion is they were because a judge bowed to political pressure so he could be reelected.
Again this is a horrible situation, but not something where the cops did anything wrong. If they did something wrong I would admit it and call for them to be fired and sent to prison. I don't want to work with problem children, they give everyone a bad name!
Eric
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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May 10, 2012 - 01:32pm PT
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If this was a "textbook" arrest, then we are completely lost as a nation. At anytime, these officers could have de-escalated the situation. Instead they choose to TEXTBOOK the sh#t out of a homeless mentally ill man, beat him to death, instead of showing some compassion and trying to help him or get him some help. What was it he was guilty of doing again? Nothing.
So this is textbook?
The Textbook used to say "To Protect and Serve." I guess that one got thrown in the trash.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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May 10, 2012 - 01:36pm PT
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We have talked about this case over and over since it happened. When we watched the video at work we were expecting "a smoking gun" or even anything unusual with the use of force. We all agreed we probably would not have phrased things like Ramos did but have all said some variation of "do as I say or you will get hurt!". There is no cop out there who hasnt said this. As fatty put it this is as close to a text book use of force you will ever see. What most people outside of law enforcement don't understand is that every use of force is ugly and violent. This incident is a horrible tragedy that could have happened to any officer in any town in the US. Every town has a "Kelly Thomas" that there cops deal with regularly. Some days they are cooperative and there are no issues other days they are shooting rounds at the aliens in there walls or fighting with every cop they can (true examples of one individual I regularly deal with). He is truly a bad from ending up in the hospital even though we take ever step we can to get him help
I was amazed that the cops were bound over. My opinion is they were because a judge bowed to political pressure so he could be reelected.
Again this is a horrible situation, but not something where the cops did anything wrong. If they did something wrong I would admit it and call for them to be fired and sent to prison. I don't want to work with problem children, they give everyone a bad name!
Eric
Eric, is it safe to assume that most other cops in Orange County share your opinion on this?
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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May 10, 2012 - 02:06pm PT
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This is what cops do, including Fattrad. They are not professional, and they are not there to "protect and serve". They are there to tool folks, as Fattrad points out (albeit in faux jest) every opportunity he has.
What these thugs have done is dispicable, and I hope they end up in prison next to some of the people they have tooled. See how tough they are then.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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May 10, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
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If that was textbook, then we need to rewrite the text.
the homeless guy wasn't threatening violence. He was fidgeting because it is hard to sit like that. You don't threaten someone with violence for not sitting still. You stand them up and cuff them. If they resist, then you bring it. But threats are a bullshit escalation for someone who is just fidgeting because he can't sit how he has been told to sit.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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May 10, 2012 - 03:03pm PT
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yes the kid was not acting rationally, but the thing that sent it over the edge was the cop threatening him.
I have a messed up back. It isn't easy to sit like that. Putting the hands behind the back is a classic move to try and relieve the back.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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May 10, 2012 - 03:06pm PT
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If the cop was worried about him running, which was the reason for the sitting position. And if the person can't sit like that, for whatever reason.. whether mental illness or physical problems, then the cop should have stood him up and cuffed him. Not threaten to beat him.
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Defense-Trainer
Social climber
East LA
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May 10, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
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Fattrad.
You are saying that it was handled perfectly and professionally. You are also saying this is all unfortunate and tragic.
I don't understand your logic there.
Would you please clarify the professionalism of your profane rationalism.
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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May 10, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
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Not being LE, I have no idea if this force is considered "acceptable" by police forces across the nation. I also cannot tell you exactly what level of force I would consider to be OK if I was required to do the difficult job that LE professionals do every day. What I can say is that i find any series of actions that leads to the injuries such as those sustained by Kelly Thomas at the hands of the police to be obviously and incredibly excessive.
I am sure that the priests who tortured individuals during the Spanish inquisition, the members of SS who ran concentration camps and many other zealots had elaborate paradigms that allowed them to justify similar atrocities. However, when you step back from all of the dogma and "policies," you have a man who was beat to death by LE officers.
I appreciate ME Climb providing the police point of view. It is not a popular view on this site. It is great to have an actual cop providing their insight here on ST, and I commend you for being honest and forthcoming. That being said, I vehemently disagree with your conclusion that the police did not do anything wrong. I would respectfully suggest that any policy that results in this level of injury is deeply flawed. I would posit that rather than protect and serve, the police in this case tormented and damaged.
Most people can justify anything. When all the other members of your group feel the same way as you, it is easy to crate a paradigm that will justify atrocities and ignore the impact that you have on individuals outside your group. It makes me very sad to think that the mindset that lead to this tragedy could be common in police forces across the country.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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May 10, 2012 - 03:57pm PT
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Handled properly?? That's absurd. I'm with Dave, those were the words of a thug. In my opinion police are thugs.
So what would happen if my stuff got stolen out of my car, Fattrad? Write a report and be done with it, right? Your assertion that this was handled properly really blows me away.
MeClimb is just giving the rationalization that any cop would. They cover each other, up to the point and including lying to justify the actions of the very worst. Shameful. Absolutely shameful.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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May 10, 2012 - 04:33pm PT
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You'll be happy to know that MEClimb actually recovered a climbers gear that had been stolen.
I'm aware of that, Fattrad. I know he's a real cop in Orange County while you were a part-time reserve volunteer years ago. Also MEClimb doesn't engage in a lot of political posturing. That's why I'm interested in his opinion as to what his perception is most other OC cops probably share his opinion.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
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May 10, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
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The cops in Fullerton did it right by the book, almost textbook. Very sad about the end results, the kid needed some serious help.
What book, you say? Mein Kampf
Let's call a Nazi a Nazi. The ranks of the so-called LEO's are riddled with wannabe White Aryan Nation, Hitler Youth stooges who couldn't get a real job if their lives depended upon it. They're full of pent-up rage because they're all a bunch of punks deep down. They're the neighborhood bullies who couldn't upfront bully until they got a uniform and a badge.
Weed out the bad seed. There's alot of it.
The tool is the fool. The man is not the man, he's the pig.
This is where they got their start.
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Defense-Trainer
Social climber
East LA
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May 10, 2012 - 04:38pm PT
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Fattrad. What about my answer? Come on Fattrad tool me too.
Oops... Wait, I mean answer me too.
Fattrad you are my hero.
I look up to you so much.
Thank you for setting such a good example of what a model citizen should be.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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May 10, 2012 - 04:38pm PT
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I never asserted that the guy did not do anything wrong. I don't know that he did, just because a cop says so, but maybe he did. Maybe a guy looking into a bunch of car windows warrants a cop stopping and asking a few questions, but that in and of itself does not warrant detention.
Last winter I was attacked by a crazy guy while driving in a snowstorm. He almost hit my truck in very poor conditions, and after blowing by me I flashed my lights at him. I'm pretty sure he was very drunk. He proceeded to wait for me, allow me to pass, and then came straight at me in his giant car. I thought he was going to hit me and literally missed me by inches. I got his license plate, called the cops while the guy was following me through Boulder, and the dispatch person told me an officer would call. The police never did call me. Not that evening and not the next day.
In my relatively limited personal experience with police, that is typical;
unprofessional, arbitrary and thuggish. If I were a cop I would be ashamed to say so.
Yes, I'm sure it's a hard job, as is mine. But you can't expect that idiot, angry thugs are going to perform a hard job well. Fattrad, if most of your friends think it was "handled properly", you just reinforcing what I would assume of cops.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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May 10, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
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I was leaving my ex gf's one night around 2am (great time, i know) from North Sacramento.
I see a car get on the freeway behind me and shoot directly into the #1 lane (about 5 lane highway there) and shoot up to me. I didn't know what to do seeing as at this time he was probably doing 120mph+/- and i was only doing 65+15/20. I didn't want to get over incase he was too drunk to react and slam into me. I stayed in my lane, sure enough he passed, I was 1/2 in the emergency lane, he was 1/2 in my lane, and the #2 lane. Shook the sh#t out of my car as he passed. He was weaving, but not too bad. I tried to speed up as i called 911, but he was already way up there. I saw a few cars swerve out of the way onto the shoulder, slam on their brakes, etc. I told the dispatcher about a possible Drunk Driver. She asked for my name and cell phone.
"An officer will call you"
Not even before I had the chance to hang up, a chp had called me and was asking for the location and direction, make, model, yadda yadda.
Maybe CO highway patrol are laxed?
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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May 10, 2012 - 06:08pm PT
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That never happens to cops though Riley!
Cops are always in the right.
Cops are 6'11 body building professional street fighters.
Cops are the most sane people out there,
and because you're not a cop, you can't confirm this.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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May 10, 2012 - 06:53pm PT
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So if they handled the situation properly Fattrad, who is responsible for the "unfortunate outcome"? If 6 cops couldn't get the cuffs on the guy, then they are even more incompetent than I would have guessed.
As I was being chased through Boulder by this lunatic guy I described upthread, I passed two Boulder cops sitting in a parking lot of a 711. I almost stopped, because I was honestly concerned about how nuts this guy that was chasing me was acting. But I decided getting chased by a mad man was preferable to getting the Boulder PD involved. I just kept driving and eventually the guy lost interest.
Boulder PD investigating a real crime?? There's a crime that would probably not get solved.
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