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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Bingo we have a winner!
A mentor of mine taught me that one of the most important choices in climbing is the choice of which climb to do. Not every route is for everyone, and the concept that below a certain grade they should all be safe is not achieveable as evidenced by the number of serious accidents on "safe" sport routes.
Exactly.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Ego has nothing whatsoever to do with my [GU, onsight, no dogging] FA's, ever, and that's because I couldn't care less if an FA of mine ever sees a second ascent. I put up routes because I see a line and get utterly obsessed with it - end of story, no ego involved. I also climb to my own style and ethics because that's what climbing 'is' for me. It has nothing whatsoever to do with other people, legacy, or whether the FA ever gets climbed again. Basically, climbing is an entirely selfish, self-centered, and private matter between me and the rock; I don't climb for other people, and I'm entirely ok with that.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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The question for me is at what grade should the route be safe for the common person (me).
There is no route that is safe. None. Stop climbing immediately.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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A climbing thread is approaching 150 posts. F*#k Yeah.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oh no, no ego there.
Not in the sense of any aspect of my ego being in any way dependent on what other people think of me, my climbing, or my climbs.
There is no route that is safe. None. Stop climbing immediately.
Exactly, no climb is safe at any grade - climbers make climbs 'safe' by choosing climbs they are capable of climbing 'safely'.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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It's a conversation on a topic last time I checked. And when folks get the assignment of ego completely ass-backwards it tends to raise my hackles.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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I'm still trying to figure out what is wrong with a certain amount of ego being a factor in climbing.
Isn't a healthy ego an essential part of a sane mind?
Is it really bad to do something when part of your motivation is pride? Isn't this aspect the thing which makes style matter to us?
I think of watching Bachar solo back in his prime in Josh. He radiated joy and pride in the same manner a great dancer can occasionally achieve. Musicians can do this also, and so can athletes. Is not ego a required ingredient to achieve at this level?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Ah, the edits - again, it's a conversation and I suppose one could read passively just letting the bullshit float by without a comment, but then I wouldn't bother with the thread at all if that were the case.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Not at all. What I do care about is the reconceptualizing of climbing, revisionist histories, loss of history, death of tradition and respect, retro-bolting, grid bolting, old-guys-of-a-certain-age pandering (sort of like hippies who turn republican), the incessant dependence on guidebooks and the need to publish every f*#king climb and crag - all adding up together to it make it increasing difficult if not eventually impossible to find places I want to climb at without driving forever.
Personally I'm glad I'm old in the face of it all.
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lamadera
Trad climber
New Mexico
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It's highly unlikey that someone will call you out for not climbing a new route GU in 2011,
Um perhaps in some areas but in many others this is NOT the case...
Define "many", 1 in 10, don't think so; 1 in 100, probably not; how about 1 in 1000?
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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lama,
You must not climb cracks very much...
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Wow, Tom. That You Tube video is pretty hair-raising in itself -- sport or non-sport.
John
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I certainly didn't say that. I said my 'climbing ego' is entirely self-powered and not at all driven by what others think of me or my climbs (also why rope-soloing is 50+% of all my climbing). What I did say was that I've seen a lot of [sport] 'developers' who are clearly putting up routes as a 'community service' in large part to be perceived as 'the man' in the context of what today is a very, very social and conjoined group gym/sport scene (at least out this way). Seen a lot of trad egos over the year as well, just not quite as specious as the 'community service' drillers.
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o-man
Social climber
Paia,Maui,HI
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Great thread!
I was contacted by a guy a while back that wanted to replace some old 1/4x 1 3/4" bolts on some routes that I put up on lead many years back.
He also pointed out that one of those routes was a very good line but it was so run out that no one would do it.
He pointed out that with a couple more well thought out bolt placements it would still be spicy but at the same time it would probably become a popular classic at what is now a sport area.
I thought about that route and remembered how I had to climb much further than I was comfortable with before I got to a tiny uncomfortable stance that I could stop and hand drill a hole in the granite and place a bolt.
It occurred to me that any one following that line will never know exactly what was going through my mind as I tap,tap,tapped that hole and the feeling of relief I achieved when the drill bit was deep enough in the rock to put a wired stopper over it and thus provide a tiny amount security .
Then when that bolt was placed, moving into the unknown to repeat the aforementioned process.
I agreed that if he wished to enhance that line he had my blessing.
When the project was completed he sent me a detailed account of the process.
It sounds like he did a good job and the line now fits into the general theme of that particular area.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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just coming back to this thread, and Joseph calls out probably one of the most difficult philosophies to balance as we grow the size of the community...
" I've seen a lot of [sport] 'developers' who are clearly putting up routes as a 'community service' in large part to be perceived as 'the man' in the context of what today is a very, very social and conjoined group gym/sport scene (at least out this way). Seen a lot of trad egos over the year as well, just not quite as specious as the 'community service' drillers."
Maybe I have the context wrong, but this is what convenience bolting is about. Making it friendly for others to enjoy. It's a good thing. Making a good climb. It's a good thing.
Making a good climb for everyone? Not necessarily, despite my own interest in climbing something like the Bachar Yerian or some difficult sport route.
Does the survival of our sport reside in congregating climbers in small dense areas that we sacrifice to overuse, or in dispersed climbing all over the place.
Is this what the old skoolers were trying to tell us back in the day (not calling you old Joseph, just generally saying old skoolers. :) ) about not putting up lines between the lines?
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lamadera
Trad climber
New Mexico
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Nice post o-man.
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climbingcook
Trad climber
sf
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I certainly didn't say that. I said my 'climbing ego' is entirely self-powered and not at all driven by what others think of me or my climbs (also why rope-soloing is 50+% of all my climbing). What I did say was that I've seen a lot of [sport] 'developers' who are clearly putting up routes as a 'community service' in large part to be perceived as 'the man' in the context of what today is a very, very social and conjoined group gym/sport scene (at least out this way). Seen a lot of trad egos over the year as well, just not quite as specious as the 'community service' drillers.
If all you climb are remote choss heaps then it shouldn't matter to anyone else what your bolting ethics are. On the other hand, if you're putting up lines on quality rock places where other people are likely to climb them then it matters. Especially if you're putting up beginner routes with pointless runouts.
The majority of the easy routes at Pinnacles are poorly protected, yet the majority of the difficult routes are well protected -- aren't we doing a disservice to the community by having a different standard for those that are new to the sport?
This is fairly unique to bolted routes -- beginners leading on gear can bring as much as they can afford or carry. Last fall on cathedral peak I passed a guy leading with a double gear sling and his gear loops full of cams, he looked to have 4 or 5 pieces of each size and was placing a piece every four or five feet. Should he have stayed home because many people are comfortable soloing that route or climbing with three pieces per pitch?
What about sustained overhanging routes? How is bolting while aid climbing better than rap bolting?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Especially if you're putting up beginner routes with pointless runouts.
I haven't put up a 'beginner' route since I was a beginner - it may have been pointless, but I can't remember.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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any route done ground up, on the lead, bolts, gear or mixed is not a sport climb. that terms came out of the rap bolting style of Europe that made it's way here in the mid 1980's.
bolts could be close together and still be done ground up, on the lead.
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