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NML81
Trad climber
N Lake Tahoe
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Oct 19, 2010 - 05:18pm PT
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We passed a party on Frogland by traversing to another route, Bourbon St. or something. The next pitch on that was fabulous.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 19, 2010 - 05:28pm PT
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When I think of climber etiquette and safety, I seldom turn to Europe for examples.
Last year, around this time, I climbed with a very well seasoned feller at Freyr, in Belgium (Jean B. who's well known there). So, we rope up for this 4 or 5 pitch classic, and, there's a party a pitch in front of us, which we rapidly over take. I was thinking we'd be in for a wait, but he climbed through them so seamlessly it was amazing to watch. Near the end, we bumped into another party. I caught then shared the belay with them. Very pleasant, and, since we were much quicker, I got the feeling they just expected us to play through. Which, we did. Strange to me, but, really facilitated easily by both parties.
Probably depends on the location and the saavy of the parties involved. Which, is probably the case anywhere.
I find the "stack the rope at the base" move pretty funny. We arrived a couple weeks ago at a very popular spot in Finale Ligure, in Italy. Wasn't super crowded, but, folks were arriving as it was still morning. We harnessed up, racked up, just as a fairly large German group arrived. First thing the feller did was take his rope out and drop it at the base of the route we were going to climb. My partner gives me this, "what do we do now" look. I walk over, flake our rope, and tell him to head up. Just as he takes off, the guy asks if we're planning on doing that route. "Uhh, yeah". Wasn't a deal as we were pretty fast and off the belay by the time their leader was up the first pitch, and, headin' down well before his second finished the first pitch. Fairly pleasant, but, I thought it might get interesting with the whole rope drop ploy. Which, I'd seen before but mostly in the states.
Red Rocks can get crowded on the classics. And, you run into all sorts of folks out there. Mostly fairly pleasant, but, sometimes, not so much. I hate the foot-race-to-the-base thing. Always think its funny when one partner arrives and expects the route is theirs when their partner is no where to be seen. "Mind if we get started?" Ha ha.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Oct 19, 2010 - 06:27pm PT
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If the party is below you then they weren't faster getting to that point by definition. I have no problem letting people pass if they seem compitent and way faster, but I will intentionally speed up if they are pushy and arogant. I don't always climb as fast as I can or do i want to. I have also passed people and find that if you are patient and polite they will usually let you through. But if I really want to do a particular route at places like Red Rocks or on something like the Diamond I get up at 3:30am and then you are usually the fastest. I agree with many statemnents above and would bet that within 20 years you need a permit to do things like the Nose or Red Rock Classics precisely because of issues like this.
Brian: There are 4-5 pitch routes in Belgium? Learn something new everyday.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Oct 19, 2010 - 06:56pm PT
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Yeah, Rocher de Fre˙r has over 600 routes/1000 pitches. Gobs of multi pitch.
Sure, though, pitches are fairly short. Tallest crags are around 120 meters or so. Neat, come right out of the river below.
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Lee Bow
Trad climber
wet island
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Oct 19, 2010 - 07:35pm PT
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I have to admit I love blasting up moderates at warp speed for kicks. On the occasions I catch up we relax and show patience. This seems to be the key to being invited to climb through...who knows, maybe we just irritate them...
There have been a couple of classics over the years.
Back in the days of EB's I was finishing up my hardest lead to date: a completely run out 10b slab on crumbling crystals and scrabbly moss. As I pull over the last roll I realize ther's a totally terrified climber at the belay (shared with an easy route). He looks at me with wide eyes and in a high pitched voice says "You can't come up here!"
"Man I'm on a 100ft runout and if I stop I'm probably going to die"
"I don't care...you have to wait!'
I reached the belay and clipped in against his protests.
When we got to the top it turned out they had no idea how to get down and we had to escort their sorry asses. Never once did the belay guy let up on what a jerk I was for clipping into the belay. Hell I didn't even clip HIS gear, just the fixed belay slings.
A couple years later I was doing Diedre with a beginning leader. These French guys wearing yellow lycra did the rude pass complete with using US for handholds (including my shakey friend on the lead). The second even farted on my head as he climber past! Sure wish I'd thought of tying of a bight! Tee Hee.
Mind-bogglinly they had no idea how to get down either. I speak French so while they followed us down I made it clear what I thought of them. They truly seemed to have no awareness that what they had done was rude.
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Frozenwaterfalls
Ice climber
California
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Oct 19, 2010 - 07:47pm PT
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Still my all time favorite was climbing Blown Away in Tuolumne. We got up early since the first two pitches are shared with West Crack and as a 5 star moderate, we assumed there would be a crowd. A rope team of a couple of friends headed on up. My climbing partner and I were flaking out our rope and getting ready ourselves to head on up (the second of the first team was about halfway up the first pitch at this point), a team of two guys comes on up and bluntly states "We are faster than you, we want to go ahead of you."
I look at them blankly not sure how to respond to such a stupid statement but my friend - much quicker of wit - comments "Well, you are not faster out of bed so wait your turn." All I can guess is that these two guys saw two gals and assumed that we were slower than them. They had not seen us climb, we weren't wasting time, just giving our friends a bit of space so there wouldn't be 3 or 4 of us at the first anchor. Mind you, our friends finished pitch 2, and I was leading out pitch 2 and the two guys had not even left the ground. And I fully admit I am not the fastest. But evidently, I was faster than those two guys and their giant egos. Passing is a priviledge, not a right. So don't be damn rude and/or jump to conclusions and if it is safe, I am happy to let people pass.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Oct 19, 2010 - 07:49pm PT
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sometimes you pass and sometimes you get passed. it can all be good. i have let parties by in hte Black Cyn while i was at a hagning belay and i have passed parties on elcap. it is not an us versus them while on route unless you are an a$$ and they are a$$e$
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ddriver
Trad climber
SLC, UT
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Oct 19, 2010 - 07:51pm PT
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Attitudes vary a lot by location it seems. In the Alps it seems common.
Got passed on the Tofane by a team of Italians who chased us mercilessly for the first 7 pitches or so, clipping my gear as they slowly caught up. Once they caught me I let them go.
Passed a couple parties on the Vinatzer on the Second Sella and caught up to a team of young Germans, who wouldn't even let me into the belay, physically blocked me from finishing on the ledge. A strong German team came upon us as I hung in space awaiting my turn, trying to pass us all. They gave the little f*ckers what for and we both wound up passing them on the way to the summit, ran down the descent, rapped together and pulled our ropes just before the storm caught those little bastards coming down.
Bypassed three teams of Italians standing at the base of the Schubert and shared the entire route with their buddies who were the strong team. Great time.
When there's more folks vying for long routes attitudes are different.
Lots of fun.
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Decko
Trad climber
Colorado
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Oct 19, 2010 - 08:56pm PT
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Twas the infamous Adrian Burgess who wrote in his book about tying a knot in some ones rope when they passed a team of Euro's in the Cham valley on a route........
Talk about old guys
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Blakeb
Gym climber
Southern Oregon, behind her
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Oct 19, 2010 - 09:06pm PT
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Reminds me of gyms and sport climbing areas when someone walks over and says: "Excuse me, are you almost done with that route?" When what he/she is clearly saying is: "Excuse me, YOU PEOPLE WHO AREN'T AS GOOD AS I AM: are you almost done with that route?"
Again, this is one of the dumbest things i have read on this site, saying excuse me is polite and inquiring about sharing a public resource seems completely valid. How else do you ask someone politely what their intentions are and planned time frame.
If you think everyone that asks you a polite question about sharing is really judging you and flaunting their ego of superiority, then maybe you really have a problem with insecurity and worrying about what others think about you or you just know that you suck and assume anyone that talks to you can tell as well, not sure which category you fall under.
On another note, so rokjok what do you plan to do to these passing perpetrators?? Start a fist fight on the side of cliff?? Cut their rope? Rappel back to the ground and key their car? Or just tie the middle of their rope to an anchor?
Hope you are prepared for them to sh#t and piss on you from above if they do make it through whatever kind of attack you are planning.
And this talk about climbing routes armed? Is getting passed on a route by some rude as#@&%e really worth shooting someone over?
I believe in our right to bear arms, but what you guys are saying is taking it too far. No one likes sitting around while some hot shots pass them and no one likes sitting behind a three person party with only one competent leader that seem to have brought the kitchen sink and all up the climb, but this is reality and passing can easily be negotiated politely and is going to happen on popular routes whether you like it or not.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 19, 2010 - 09:21pm PT
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You just don't get it, do you Blake. This is the internet, and posting sensible ideas about how to work out a pass/no pass situation by talking things over like responsible adults will get you nothing but contempt.
No, unless you're a total hardass about it, you don't deserve to be on the rock. Beat people up if they try to pass you. Or shoot them. Isn't that why we climb? So that we can post on the internet as if we were real tough customers?
Why, if the Internet Climbers Club ever found out you were actually a decent human being, you'd be laughed at.
Here's the right attitude if you want to be a real Internet Climber: "If I am on the climb, and its a 2 or 4 or 5 pitch climb, you can damn well wait until I am off it." Be like the guy who said this up above and...
And what? Be generally recognized as an arrogant as#@&%e? What's the difference between that "No way is anybody ever gonna pass me" attitude and the "I'll pass you whether you like it or not" attitude?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 19, 2010 - 09:36pm PT
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No Ghost neither you nor BlakeB get it.
Spend a little time in a wheelchair, or watch some reckless fool kill some innocent people, and bearing arms to enforce a safer situation is, legally, not out of line, and while not an appealing prospect, might just be the kind of incident to galvanize the community into addressing the problem and, in the end, save countless lives.
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 19, 2010 - 09:45pm PT
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Common sense, an IQ equal to or greater than your age, good manners, and situational awareness are all that are needed. Any questions?
Be safe my friends.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 19, 2010 - 09:52pm PT
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Sorry Ron, but I think it's you that's misunderstanding here. Nowhere did I (or, I think, Blake) say it was cool to pass at any time. Or to deny passing at any time. Just that it was uncool to get all arrogant and say words to the effect that "No f*#kin sunuvabitch is ever gonna pass me!"
If you feel that the only way you can be safe on a climb is to carry a gun, then I really have no response.
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Oct 19, 2010 - 10:13pm PT
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The most basic principle is civility on all sides; nearly all passing/no passing situations are sorted out amicably on this principle. As Jaybro posted, "I find that if you are fast, friendly and polite, they Always invite you to pass." Similarly, if you are just not that fast on a particular day, also be friendly and polite and anchor a bit to one side, or slightly below (or on a longer tie-in) to facilitate an easy pass. We did this once on E Buttress of El Cap, and sure enough, when the waterfall started blowing over the route, everyone was happy to join forces so we had two ropes for the rappels.
Whichever position you're in, if you first assume people are cool and safe and friendly, usually they turn out to be; only a few will turn out just to be committed to being jerks, in which case you just have to chill or bail - we do go climbing to have fun, don't we? not to just vent or be jerks ourselves??
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MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 19, 2010 - 10:47pm PT
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Great posts everyone!
I just finished reading the whole thread since this morning, and really appreciate everyone's input.
Thanks again!
But I sometimes climb armed, and if some asshat thinks he has the "right" to endanger me he may get a terminal surprise.
The image of Ron bleeding from rockfall in one arm and taking careful aim at the non-permissioned aggro passer (that knocked the rock loose) with his good arm had me laughing!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 19, 2010 - 10:58pm PT
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You think I'd wait that long?
Ghost, there is more than one use for a gun; snake control, distress signal, hell in sandstone I've even started bolt holes with one!
And they're great for virgin summit celebration.
You should've seen the pasty faces of the canoeists a thousand feet below when we bagged Abbey Tower.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Oct 19, 2010 - 11:52pm PT
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Mr E don't get me Started....Sounds like everyone made an assumption in judgement and they were fortunate it ended as well as it did....As Sir PAul Mc would say Too many people running underground...Too many people looking for their lucky break....That was your first mistake....You broke it in two....Bass drum .
Ram album...You were there ,I was there, do you remember? Take care Bro and good climbing towards you...Stay away from multiple parties on routes...It usually doesn't end well.
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sergio64
Trad climber
Sin City
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Oct 20, 2010 - 12:25am PT
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Did Frogland 3 weeks ago and found a slow party ahead of us. Nice guys, from Boulder, boyfriend and girlfriend. I lead the first few pitches, and whenever I got close to her tail I slowed down. When she was at the belays she offered me to clip into her anchor, so I joined her and chatted away while my belayer waited down below. At the start of the fourth pitch and before she took off, I asked her to yell down to me when she was ready to take off for the fifth so I could start climbing and keep away from them. We could have easily passed them, but why?? We enjoyed our company, we laughed, we told stories and had a sandwich. What's the big rush that you have to pass people? I just don't get it.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 20, 2010 - 02:13am PT
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I never pass a good sandwich.
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