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MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 18, 2010 - 06:31pm PT
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Spent the weekend at Red Rocks with friends at one of the group sites, and two of them came back with this story on Saturday:
They showed up to do Frogland (a multi-pitch moderate) not particularly early, and were not suprised to see other parties already on the route. They relaxed, racked up and waited for their turn. There were two parties on the route, and the first party was really slow (I am sure we have all experienced this situation). The second party then decided to pass the first party by running a couple of pitches together, bypassing the slow party at the mid-point anchor. I do not know all of the details, but what happened next was quite unbelievable:
As the leader of the passing party got to the higher anchors and prepared to belay up his girlfriend, the leader of the slower party reached out, grabbed the rope at the mid-point, tied an overhand knot on a bight, and clipped it into their anchors, effectively stranding both the leader and the follower!
The leader of the passing party remained calm, and talked to the other leader, finally convincing him to unclip the rope after 15 minutes.
What could the guy be thinking that pulled such a dipsh1t move? I was just appalled at this behavior - if it had been me, I would have fixed the line and rapped down to the anchor and been in the guy's face. Did he consider that at some point he was going to encounter this guy on-route, either going up or down, and that his behavior could seriously jeopardize his own future safety, not to mention the obvious immediate immobilization of a party on-route? Or the parties waiting behind them?
I have never heard of such a thing in 22 years of climbing - just stunned.
If you have crazy stories like this of dumbass maneuvers by d1ck-heads, please share them here.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 18, 2010 - 06:33pm PT
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The second party then decided to pass the first party by running a couple of pitches together, bypassing the slow party at the mid-point anchor. Was it safe to do so at that point, both generally and from the perspective of the first party? Did they ask or at least inform the first party of what they were doing? Perhaps there's more than one side to the story.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Oct 18, 2010 - 06:36pm PT
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That idiot's lucky the passing people were rational. Remote desert areas seem to be where witnesses are few and accidents are sometimes on purpose...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 18, 2010 - 06:53pm PT
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I was only suggesting that perhaps the first (passed) party felt that they had been endangered, and believed they were acting in self-defence. That wouldn't justify what happened, but might explain it. There are some quite aggressive climbers, and some that are quite territorial - not a good mix.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Oct 18, 2010 - 06:53pm PT
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I can see both sides of a "party passing" story. Last year, I was climbing the East Buttress of El Capitan. We were the third of four parties on the route. Both the second and fourth parties had long ropes and wanted to link pitches. That's OK, but here is the problem in this particular situation.
When you link pitches, it takes close to twice as long to do two pitches as it does one. Also, the second can't start climbing until the leader has finished leading the two linked pitches. What this means is that the party who has graciously (or non-graciously) allowed you to climb ahead of them has to wait almost twice as long to start climbing than if you were just doing the climb without linking pitches. Is that fair to the party who just let you pass?
My own personal feeling is that if a party is allowed to pass and they are linking pitches, they should climb without linking pitches until they are far enough ahead that when they do link pitches they aren't causing the party they passed to have to wait.
Bruce
ps - luckily we had headlamps as we had to wait two hours at the belay below the 5.9 handcrack for the party passing us to link the next two 5.9 pitches.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Oct 18, 2010 - 06:55pm PT
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good question if it rises to the level of assault or battery. wonder how you would make that argument? Police wouldn't know how to write it up, would they? interesting.
Is it negligence if the doctrine of assumption of the risk applies to rock climbing generally? The counter is that 'no, it doesn't apply to scenarios in which tie'ing off someone mid pitch is not normally part of the climbing environment.
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Bad Climber
climber
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Oct 18, 2010 - 06:56pm PT
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Climbing through like that is a bit rude--but clipping in the rope? Flat out crazy--and stupid. I've tried a couple of times to get on Frogland--gave up both times due to super noobs going super slow, parties of 16, etc. Ugh.
Story: I heard this from an experienced climber doing a route, IIRC, on the Drus in the French Alps. Some hot-shot party in lycra--and little else--came blasting through, using gear placed by other parties--just clipping into the same pieces without a by-your-leave--and, at one point, grabbing the ankle of a guy leading a pitch! The offending party's clothing was so light, that had ANYTHING moved in, hypothermia would have been assured. Total asses. It's times like these that call out for the old Don Whillains five-finger mouth implant! :)
Be safe--and courteous out there.
BAd
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 18, 2010 - 07:05pm PT
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at one point, grabbing the ankle of a guy leading a pitch
Hahaha LOL !!!!
If you're gonna pass you have to be like the wind.
Gone in no time.
By the time the other party realizes what's going on and trying to react you're long gone.
Then they're either going WTF just happened or looking up and calling you a "Dick" both mentally and verbally.
Too late ....
This is has been a public service passing primer class: pass101
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 18, 2010 - 07:06pm PT
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There is a parallel with driving- if you are going slow and impeding traffic you should move over and let the faster traffic by. Unfortunately, really slow climbers are often in some personal fog that precludes polite behavior.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Oct 18, 2010 - 07:35pm PT
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people are stupid, have no courtesy and no patience.. if you are first on the route you are first plain and simple. some tries to pass me, they will have issues..
plain and simple,,
if you are second in line, go find another route..
plain and simple..
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slobmonster
Trad climber
OAK (nee NH)
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Oct 18, 2010 - 07:45pm PT
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Brilliant. BRILLIANT move I say.
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rincon
Trad climber
SoCal
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Oct 18, 2010 - 07:48pm PT
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Tieing the guy off was uncalled for (shouldn't have let 'em pass), though I think passing people on Frogland is way lame and rude.
If your'e fast...just wait until late in the day, and then be the last party up. Or do it on a weekday. In my book that's a beginners route, and experienced climbers should respect that the newbs will be slow, and you ain't a hotshot just because you can climb Frogland fast :)
We Hiked all the way in to do L29 once, but a really slow party was already on the second pitch, so we did Rainbow Buttress instead. Glad we did because it's a good route too.
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DanaB
climber
Philadelphia
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Oct 18, 2010 - 07:50pm PT
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The first time I went to Red Rock we were behind an ungodly slow party. The belays were all bolted, and my partner (or I) would lead a pitch and he or I would follow the pitch in the time it took their leader to get 10-15 feet out from the belay we all were now sharing. You know what? Tough sh#t for us. They were there first; those are the breaks.
Slow (whatever that is) climbers may be in some sort of fog that seems to prevent them from acting politely, but I am sure that at times fast (whatever that is) climbers are in some sort of fog that prevents them from acting politely, as well.
Reminds me of gyms and sport climbing areas when someone walks over and says: "Excuse me, are you almost done with that route?" When what he/she is clearly saying is: "Excuse me, YOU PEOPLE WHO AREN'T AS GOOD AS I AM: are you almost done with that route?"
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hooblie
climber
from where the anecdotes roam
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Oct 18, 2010 - 07:57pm PT
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i actually kind of like this scenario. an attempt by the passing team to pre-empt
the rightfully held upper hand in a negotiation was neutralized until bargaining
could be initiated at the prior teams convenience, with their position unaltered
by unilateral roughshod behavior.
establishment of a compromise occurs with both parties in attendence.
brilliant and proper, easy to see how they came to terms.
a fair warning to would be throttle jockeys
~~~
i imagine we owe some of these innovations
to those hoods in the woods programs.
good fun E, may we have another?
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Oct 18, 2010 - 07:58pm PT
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Standard ethics dictate you don't pass without permission, sounds like the second party decided to pull a dick move and pass anyway. The first party responded in kind with their own dick move. No winners here.
Especially in placed like Red Rocks where hold break, and there is still loose rock just off route, it is completely reasonable for the high party to not want to be passed. At least they waited till the leader was at a belay, and didn't do it while the leader was mid-crux like he probably deserved.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 18, 2010 - 07:58pm PT
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Although donini and the kid seem contradictory, I think they're both right. We pass by the leave of those ahead of us. They may well have gotten there first to make sure that no one is kicking rocks down on them.
That said, I've never refused a request to pass me in 43 years of climbing. Then again, though, when I was a noob, it was rare to be on the same climb as another party -- at least in the Valley -- and it took little effort to insure you had not only the route, but the whole cliff to yourself. You can't do that much anymore.
I still think the best analogy is to golf etiquette. You play through only with permission, but if you have that permission, you play as fast as you can, and get out of the way ASAP. Converseley, if there is an open hole in front, you let a faster party play through. Better for both.
John
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 18, 2010 - 07:59pm PT
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Not me ....
If I'm on a route and Donini comes roaring up behind me I will yield and let him pass.
I know my place in line .....
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harihari
Trad climber
Squampton
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Oct 18, 2010 - 08:00pm PT
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I was climbing Outer Space once. On the route next to us, a girl was leading, and having trouble. Their route came clsoe to ours, and they bailed off theirs onto ours. They switched so the guy was leading, and the guy passed my belayer as I was leading without permission, so that at one point I was leading with him 20 feet bleow me also leading. He set up his belay below us. I brought my partner up and led off again...and this guy did the same thing, passing my belayer and leading underneath me.
Then, their rope got stuck. Yelling ensued between the guy and his partner. Meanwhile, I brought up my second and we finished the route with no more interference.
Back in town the guy found us at the Subway, and wanted to fight me. I told him I'd be glad to oblige, and then the guy totally chickened out, muttering away. Lucky for me: he was way more tough-looking than skinny me and he had a girlfriend to impress .
I asked my partner what the issue was, and he said "I jammed their rope into the crack when they passed without asking the second time." We laughed, ate, went outside and saw the guy's climbing partner, who came over to us and said "my soon-to-be-ex-boyfriend is kind of an as#@&%e...sorry about that." We gave her a cold beer from the trunk and drove away.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 18, 2010 - 08:04pm PT
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This thread was worth it, to get to that post, hari. Cheers!
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MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2010 - 08:19pm PT
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I guess I assumed that because of his remaining calm, and talking the other leader out of the tied-off bight, that he had permission to pass.
The truth is, I just don't know - I will try to get more info from the party that was third.
Thanks for your responses and stories - harihari: classic!
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