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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Sep 15, 2010 - 10:01pm PT
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Thats strange, my understanding is that solar output has been intensively studied as it relates to Global Warming, figures like a potential 2-3% contribution come to mind.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Sep 15, 2010 - 10:14pm PT
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I'm intrigued, BDC. On the other hand, you fit the profile I'm suggesting of an otherwise-smart guy (or gal) who (presumeably) votes republican and is skeptical of the current consensus on climate change among climate scientists.
Here's what I think. IF humans survive long enough, they will absolutely face climate change of the global warming AND global cooling type. New York City again will once again lie uderneath a mile of ice, ...unless humans of the future engineer their way out of this predicament. Let's not be afraid of the science.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2010 - 10:23pm PT
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^^^
Did they melt over the course of ~50 years?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Sep 15, 2010 - 10:43pm PT
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Perhaps no one else mentioned it yet so I will. Christine O'Donnell - Creationist - wins Republican primary.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/16/us/politics/16odonnell.html
She and I go way back, used to watch her on Politically Incorrect with Bill Maher, 10 years ago even. You didn't know whether to laugh or cry. Still don't.
Wherever Abrahamic religion and science are bumping heads, she's as anti-science as you can get. Angels, demons, the world as a three-layer cake, literal heaven and hell, the rapture - she believes it all - that's her model for how the world works.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Sep 15, 2010 - 11:08pm PT
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Pretty sad indeed HFCS. I wonder when the first agnostic/atheist president will be elected? It couldn't happen today.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 16, 2010 - 12:11am PT
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here is an interesting article in The New Atlantis which discusses some of these issues. In particular, the history of congressional agency called the Office of Technology Assessment (OTA) which did an outstanding job producing reports for congress, yet fell prey to the congressional budget reductions brought on by the 1992 Republican success becoming the majority party of the House of Representatives... they cut the OTA, with an annual budget of $20M to help control the $1.5 trilllion federal budget...
http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/science-and-congress
...anyway, it is an interesting history... relevant to this discussion...
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Sep 16, 2010 - 12:24am PT
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The repubs are not so much anti science as they are pro capitalism....money is their god and anything that gets in the way of them worshipping and hording the almighty green gets shucked .....science just happens to get in the way of their monetary goals and becomes their scorn and ridicule....meanwhile the environment that they exploit for their personal gain , vanishes before their sorry eyes....rj
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Sep 16, 2010 - 12:47am PT
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money is their god
Thank you. I've been convinced for a while that the god fearing right doesn't really worship God. They worship Mammon.
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hooblie
climber
from where the anecdotes roam
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Sep 16, 2010 - 01:46am PT
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i have it on good authority, from one of the scientists "released" from the grand canyon late in bush II's regime, that the warehouse which served as shelter for their scattered work cubicles, got crowded to the point of nearly unworkable by pallets and pallets of donated volumes describing the formation of the grand canyon in terms consistant with creationism.
my assumption is that the bookstore in the visitor's center doesn't order inventory in quantities that require offsite storage for the overflow
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/301756/Grand-Canyon-Creationist-Book
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Sep 16, 2010 - 02:48am PT
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All it would inspire in any sane person is a gag reflex.
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hooblie
climber
from where the anecdotes roam
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Sep 16, 2010 - 03:30am PT
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amazing, this internet. combined with a campfire surrounded by people in the know,
it's almost come full circle ... at least back to a congenial brand of social science.
glad to see the field of natural science is getting weeded.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 16, 2010 - 06:02am PT
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Thats strange, my understanding is that solar output has been intensively studied as it relates to Global Warming, figures like a potential 2-3% contribution come to mind.
That's my understanding as well, Jeremy. The real issue on all of this becomes one of statistical methods and confidence intervals. We're stuck with making statistical inferences from nonexperimental data. In that circumstance, classical statistical models overstate the degrees of freedom, and consequently the statistics of fit.
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 16, 2010 - 06:31am PT
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It's the whole idea of taking a stand on a non-political question based on your politics that bugs me. Just once I would like to hear a conservative say something like "Yeah, we are causing global warming but I think we should engineer our way out of it, because of the cost to the global economy". Now that's an honest response that would be the starting point for useful debate.
There are plenty of conservatives (I use that term since, after reading the hate-fest that this thread has become, I can't define what "right wing" means) who think somewhat like that.
I've posted repeatedly (Dr. F would say ad nauseum) that what is happening to climate, and human effects on it, are scientific questions, but what to do about it are economic ones. For self-evident reasons, the left (whoever and whatever that is) doesn't like to talk about that sort of thing because it offends their religious beliefs.
John
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Sep 16, 2010 - 10:10am PT
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Which begs the question, why do conservatives equate a clean environment with a bad economy?
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Damn this looks high
Boulder climber
Temecula, Ca
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Sep 16, 2010 - 10:57am PT
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Everyone's anti-something if it gets their agenda to move forward.
BTW, Nixon was prez but just barely when we went to the moon.
BTW, think there's any cool climbing on the moon? Face climbs might not be so sketchy with 1/6th the gravity. Also, think of the reduced force on the anchors and belayer--assuming the belayer could keep from must floating away.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 16, 2010 - 01:32pm PT
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Which begs the question, why do conservatives equate a clean environment with a bad economy?
Objection. Lacks foundation and assumes facts without evidence.
Conservatives simply recognize that cleaning the environment -- and not cleaning the environment -- each involve costs.
John
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Sep 16, 2010 - 03:33pm PT
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Conservatives simply recognize that cleaning the environment -- and not cleaning the environment -- each involve costs.
I'd disagree with that bracketed assertion. I've never heard a conservative politician or commentator EVER comment on the cost of not cleaning the environment, unless it's costs they're looking to avoid by arguing against or not complying with environmental regulation. Historically, business have always shifted that cost to society at large thru pollution, adverse health effects, condemned properties, Superfund sites, etc.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 16, 2010 - 03:54pm PT
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Then you'e never taken my economics class, Fat Dad.
John
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Sep 16, 2010 - 04:25pm PT
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John,
I forgot to comment on your objection. Overruled. I think any court would be willing to take judicial notice of the right's claim that pro-environment is anti-business. Just look at Carly Fiorina's campaign.
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