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karsten delap
climber
IN
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Jul 30, 2010 - 08:25am PT
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I think that guiding IS a way to make a living. At Fox Mountain Guides we have 4 guides that are not owners in anyway; making a living, only guiding. We work long hard hours, but the rewards are worth it. Traveling the world, being outside, and the most important part, seeing our clients have wonderful experiences as well as grow in an activity that will allow them to recreate for the rest of there lives.
We have many part time guides as well as a few interns and usually the ones that don't work out are the ones that aren't in it for the clients. A lot of folks out there young and old think that guiding means that they will get to climb a lot, and sometimes we do; but even then it is for someone else.
All of us have some AMGA certification at some level. To say that the AMGA can't be for the guides and guide services at the same time is ludicrous. The AMGA has an accreditation program that is for companies and a certification program for guides. They do somewhat go hand in hand but you can also have one without the other if you so choose. The AMGA understands that guides need guide services as much as guide services need guides.
Also to clarify why the AMGA added a leading component to to the SPI program was due to many organizations saying that without a leading component the certification was useless. Also the UIAA requires you to have some type of leading component so 5 years ago when the AMGA started pursuing UIAA endorsement they had to change that. I was a big fan of this as it has also leveled the playing field of candidates that are now coming well prepared to the programs.
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2010 - 11:43am PT
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Hey Karsten,
think we met in JT last year or the year before......Anyhow thats great Adam has enough work for 4 full time guides. that is not true with many many services. I, like yourself, am lucky enough to chip out a reasonable living in this profession, but we are DEFINITELY the minority. And yes we work our asses off!!!!!!!!!
Wanna know how we could all make a REAL living in this business????? Work for ourselves. I dont believe guides need guide services. Thats just the model all of us young bucks grew up in..... Many other fields of the guide world work for themselves, ie advertise, insurance, ect. We as rock climbing guides ARE getting middled, bottom line. Guide services are charging $300+ a day for our time and if were real lucky we might see 60% of that. Most guides see 50% or less. As it stands now guide service owners do provide insurance, marketing, ect, and yes they should get paid for that. But why are we as a industry splitting what is already considered a pittance of a living in the US?
P.S. Let me say the guides union that Coz speaks of is a very good idea and would up the sustainability of this career substantially.
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karsten delap
climber
IN
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Jul 30, 2010 - 01:28pm PT
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This is the problem with many guides today thinking that they don’t need guide services. The AMGA thinks of their certifications as a minimum standard. Guide services provide much of the needed training in certain areas as well as keep you from guiding in a black hole; i.e.: doing things the way one always has.
This is very evident with many of the folks that get mad at the AMGA. They go take an exam fail it, (sometimes twice), get pissed off and start their own organizations. Then use excuses like learning disabilities, bad instructors, no mentoring to talk bad about the organization.
All these folks would have to do is try these new techniques, learn to deal with personalities that they haven’t been able to deal with before, and step out side their black hole and become more professional.
Of all the successful guide services out there, most of the owners spent many years working for other guide services; honing their craft; getting an education then started there own guide service.
I know many of my friends that truly work hard are making a living at guiding and they don’t own a guide service.
As far as a Co-op; well there is one. It is called the Certified Guides Federation. It is for independent “certified” guides to get permits and gain access to lands so that they can work legally with insurance and permits. The CGF is also trying to work with guide services to help them gain access and permits as they see the need for the guide service as well.
Many guides in Europe do work for themselves and have for there entire careers. This is evident in their old fashion ways; and why I feel our IFMGA guides are some of the best in the world due to there up bringing and continuing working around other guides at their respective guide services. Of course we have many continuing education opportunities at our annual AMGA conference as well.
No matter how you look at the rates you make it all goes somewhere. If you are working for yourself you will have to do marketing, pay the rent, get your own insurance, permit fees, gear, which are all extra expenses that you won’t incur if you work for a service.
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apogee
climber
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Jul 30, 2010 - 01:44pm PT
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"We as rock climbing guides ARE getting middled, bottom line."
Yeah, I used to believe that too, early in my outdoor/adventure ed career, when I was working entirely as a field practitioner and guide. I'd look at my employer, and was quite certain I was being manipulated to their advantage.
Then I moved into program management, and program ownership- I see things a bit differently now, as you might imagine. After a long time in this industry, involved in many differing aspects of it, it has become quite clear that no-one is getting rich: this is a values-rich, money-poor career path. If you are seeking a 6-figure salary, you'd best be looking elsewhere- in this industry, the higher salaries (usually at a mid-upper management level) are about mid-50's. Pretty hard to build a future, a relationship, and a family on those kinds of wages.
Those who work in this field tend to talk about how oppressed this line of work is, with something approaching a conspiratorial tone. I have had such a view in the past, but these days I'm more convinced it is a matter or simple economics: we (as an industry) have established a 'product' with a value associated with it, which is largely driven by what the market will pay for it. To see this industry shift to a truly sustainable path would require universal agreement amongst it's providers to increase our threshold at which we are willing to provide the service. That is, expect & accept more for what we do.
That won't happen, though. The market has come to expect our services within a certain cost range, and even if 80% of the industry raised their rates to achieve such a goal, there would be 20% who would not and would scoop everybody else.
The outdoor/adventure education industry abounds with young, single, people unencumbered by mortgages and obligations. It's easy to say that's because we are oppressed by 'the man' who presents us only with an unsustainable choice: the truth is much more complex than that.
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2010 - 08:17pm PT
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I believe I worked for the same fella Coz is talking about, I was lucky, he paid me 100/day. When I asked for a raise he simply never called me again. At that time I was oblivious.... But those senior level guys are great guides and people, to them my apologies. The best interests of guides and guide companys do not always sit parallel. For the young aspiring guide guide services are a must, but for the experienced guide veteran, I dont believe so. So if the veteran chooses to continue guiding he/she starts their own business. Then they (as the owner) profit off the young buck. Guiding can be profitable, just not always for the guide. I fully relies the commitment and overhead involved with running your own service, however why would anyone do it if there wasn't some money there??? (JOHN?). $50 grand a year would be sweeeeet!!!!!!!!!! Not sure how I would spend that much money.......... The CGF is a good start, PCGI has a similar program http://www.climbingguidesinstitute.org/site/content/view/63/109/
To Karsten, Professionalism? Way to represent your ethical code!!!!!!! If you wish to talk about positive stuff in the guide community I'm all ears. Dont think you and I have a beef....... But I could be wrong......
PS I know a fella in JT who charges exorbitant fees, but guess what??? He gets it because he is the best of the best and not trained by either the PCGI, AMGA or PCIA!!!!!!!!!!!
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apogee
climber
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Jul 30, 2010 - 09:26pm PT
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Apples and oranges, indeed.
The problem with this dialogue is that we are discussing the issue from several differing views of the industry. Seth is a 'classic' rock guide, working for a service or occasionally independently, with relatively small groups (~1-10), serving the general public.
Coz does something similar, but because of the name he has built for himself, specializes his services towards high-end clients, film/advertising gigs, military contracts, and the like. Myself, I currently own and operate an outdoor skills program that provides climbing courses (amongst other outdoor skills) on both an open-enrollment and contract basis for the general population. In the past, I managed a non-profit outdoor program that provides outdoor programs for schools, and was a program director and field instructor for Outward Bound, teaching mountaineering and rock climbing courses in the Sierra.
It's no wonder we are not in clear agreement in many areas- our experiences vary widely. Coz, your view of how things should work may be well advised in the discipline that you & Seth work within (and to a degree, mine as well), but that is a very narrow view of how the outdoor/adventure ed industry works, and how rock climbing is conducted within it.
It would appear that the main thing we all have in common in this thread is that we are talking about rock climbing...beyond that, it really is apples and oranges.
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apogee
climber
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Jul 30, 2010 - 09:49pm PT
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By the way, Seth, just to be sure my post regarding compensation sustainability is in the rght context, can you clarify a few things?
*You are mid- 30's, correct?
*Are you married or single?
*Do you have a permanent residence, (i.e. rent or mortgage)?
*Do you have any school loan debt (or similar)?
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2010 - 09:50pm PT
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Apples and oranges, good call John!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 30, 2010 - 09:55pm PT
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John,
Mid 30s check
Engaged to the most amazing woman of all time, a 14 year love affair coming to fruition.
Own a cabin in JT outright, on the road minimum 6 months/year
College drop out relatively debt free.
I aint given you my social dude...... Wanna give me a job????
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apogee
climber
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Jul 30, 2010 - 11:39pm PT
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Seth, this is not intended in any way to be pejorative, but when you are married, have had a child or two (or are at least in serious consideration), with the implications of medical insurance for your family, and perhaps have decided that it is in the best interests of your children that you or your spouse are present for them regularly, and are in your late 40's (at least) with the spectre of retirement not nearly as far away as you used to think it was....
Then let's revisit that discussion of income levels. If you could poll those here on ST about their opinions as to what kind of income is necessary to sustain a life, a family, and a future, you are likely to find that $50K is borderline poverty level. If you live anywhere near (or within) a major urban center, you will likely be applying for food stamps on that kind of income (ok, I exaggerate...but only a little).
There was a time when I, too, spent most of my year on the road teaching and instructing- for many years, I maintained a rental room or home, and spent all of 40 days in it each year. And it was glorious- I learned a ton, was excited about the future, and revelled in the opportunity to meet new people and experiences. During that time, my needs were pretty minimal- and when I learned of the managers and supervisors of the programs that I worked for making $30K, $40K, or more every year, it sounded like they had indeed found the golden ring.
Eventually, I began to tire of the road life- I know that sounds crazy, but it happens to most- and began to be intrigued by the stable lives those managers and supervisors lead, while still maintaining an involvement in the adventure ed industry. Because of my similar aspirations, I followed their lead, and gained a very different perspective on what it takes to make a career in the outdoor/adventure ed industry truly sustainable.
Within the context of having a marriage, home, family and future, I would guess that most members of this ST community would likely agree that a $50K income figure is remarkably conservative and frugal- Coz would probably say it was chickenfeed. All of this to say that your perception of what makes a career like ours to be truly sustainable might very well change dramatically for you in the coming years.
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zeker
Trad climber
bishop
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Jul 31, 2010 - 02:39am PT
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More PCGI facts:
The original PCGI BOD consisted of 5 people. 3 of them had no AMGA training or certification and still have no AMGA training and/or certification and have never taken any AMGA exams. 1 of the original PCGI BOD members is a certified AMGA rock instructor, but is no longer a PCGI BOD member. 1 of the other original PCGI BOD members and that same person who is still a current PCGI BOD member had been previously AMGA TRSM and AMGA SPI Certified and that same individual had been unsuccessful in the AMGA rock instructor certification exams on two separate occasions. None of the current PCGI BOD members are currently AMGA certified, and only one of the current PCGI BOD members has ever taken any level of AMGA exams, TRSM, SPI or other wise and one has taken the AMGA rock instructor course, but never any AMGA exams. See here for current PCGI BOD list:http://www.climbingguidesinstitute.org/site/content/view/19/43/
The current PCGI mentor/assessor pool and mentors/assessors in training program is comprised of several people who have never taken any level of AMGA course or exam for certification, along with 2 people who are AMGA certified rock guides and one person who was the co-creator of the AMGA rock guide and rock instructor training and certification program. And last, but far from least, also in the PCGI mentor/assessor pool, two individuals who were previously AMGA SPI and/or AMGA TRSM certified and who had been unsuccessful within the AMGA rock instructor certification examinations, one of them on 2 separate AMGA rock instructor exams.
The aforementioned are the facts.
Never the less, I encourage everyone to never believe simply what they read, especially on SuperTopo.com
I suggest doing your own research.
I wish all my Super Topo friends and associates the best! Now, I gotta go to bed and guide early in the morning. Thanks for reading this!
And for the record I wish all the guide training and cert orgs the best of luck and prosperity and I am positive the public will dictate the direction and value of the guide training and/or certification market, as they do with all markets in the USA.
Cheers,
Zeke Federman
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zeker
Trad climber
bishop
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Jul 31, 2010 - 02:49am PT
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PCIA facts - (Not PCGI) http://www.pcia.us
Fact 1 - PCIA allows its instructors and certifiers to be certified at the exact same level that they teach at and examine/certify at. For example, SPI cert folks can teach others how to be SPI's and certify them as well, if approved by PCIA to do so.
Fact 2 - PCIA currently gives reciprocity for AMGA certifications for FREE!
Fact 3 - Several PCIA instructors/certifiers were never previously AMGA certified and are not currently AMGA certified.
Good night now. I mean it this time. Thanks again for reading my posts.
Cheers,
Zeke
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zeker
Trad climber
bishop
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Jul 31, 2010 - 03:35am PT
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Sucked back in by Sethsquatch!
Below is the rough breakdown on daily math on that $300.00 gross the average guide service charges, as per your post and profits made. You and other guides making $120.00 or more per private day are getting a very good deal from any guide service paying you that. You might want to rethink your position on this one, old buddy/bro/ good friend!
Example:
$300.00 - Gross sale - one person guide day
-$150.00 - guides pay ( this does not include employee/payroll taxes, workers comp, etc, if guides are "employees" adding about another $25.00 in fees per day, but not applicable if service chooses to pay guides as "contractors" which many do in Joshua Tree, read the web sites!)
-$6.00 - marketing/2% of gross sales, very low estimate
-$9.00 - liability insurance
-$8.00 - credit card process fee 2.225% is average
-$9.00 - permit fee- for Forest Service/3% of gross, lower for NPS
-$8.00 - phone, office supplies, internet, computer, etc
-$1.00 - gear/wear and tear per day
-$15.00 - state/fed corp income tax and this is @ 5%/fairly low
-$6.00 - admin/reservations/sales staff per phone call/reservation
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=$88.00 net profit to guide service/ouch!
And I have spared this estimate many other expenses like county property taxes on equipt owned, accountants fees, office rents, etc. Reality is, the average service prob nets under $80.00 in profit per $300.00 day. And even if manager is for example overspending on marketing and getting jacked by feds and state for taxes, and on insurance (which I doubt) just no way, any service can make over roughly $105.00 per day profit in above said $300.00 sale, unless they pay the guides $100.00 or less per day, which is prob the smart thing to do. I'm not defending the guy you and Coz are talking about in J-Tree, I don't like him, his business practices or his guiding practices, but I will defend him seeking to pay guides, $100.00 or less per day, that's just plain smart business and actually good pay based on what he charges and the industry average cost of a guided day. He's no stupid biz man, he's my most fierce competitor in Joshua Tree! He's been around for a long time and will prob be around for some time to come. I think there is something to be learned from everyone.
Guide Service Profit Fact: The only way guide services and/or climbing schools survive, is on high volume such as larger group events or say 15 plus guides going out per day private guiding (which you/Seth claim is rare anyway). From a guide service/climbing school mangers perspective, private guiding with 1-5 or so clients and a few guides out per day, just keeps work going for the guides and usually good tips for guides and keeps/gets clients/ individuals stoked on climbing as well, but is far from a big money maker. No guide service is making "big" period money in the world of business at large.
I feel comfortable and factually based saying these things, as I have been running a quite successful guide/climbing school biz for about 10 years and was also schooled by working as a guide and program manager for one of the dominant guide services in the entire State of CA ( voted by National Geographic mag as "one of the best outfitters on earth"!)
Maybe you and the rest of the "guides" in the industry can figure it out to be better then I described above for all of us. Maybe you guys should give it a shot and all team up and compete against industry leaders like myself and Karsten's boss Adam Fox, see how much $ we are raking in on those $300-$500 private days? Let me know how it works out, maybe in a few years after you and the "guides" are established, I can get a low interest loan from you guys, with all the $ you guys will have banked, or even come guide for you guys and then claim that i'm getting "middled" as a guide, would be a fun turning of the tables. I promise the grass will be no greener, just maybe faster growing and requiring more frequent mowing. Good Luck to all guides and guide services!
Furthermore Seth, your statement that guides are getting "middled" is completely baseless. For that whopping 88 bucks the guide service pulls in as described above, are you aware of the man hours of internet marketing and other marketing prowess involved, client connections, permits filing time, government meetings, payroll, and on and on and on. Most guides would crumble under that type of work load. Guys like me work 12-14 hours per day, almost every day! That's why most guides are not good business owners. I hereby officially invite you, and/or any other guide who just guides and does not manage a service, to trade jobs with me for a year. Currently, I guide and run the guide service, lets see how you are doing with that work load after a year and how the company in general is doing after 1 year.
I have been a guide working for a service, been a manager and now owner and guide and manger, I know all of this from experience, I talk no B.S. here guys.
Cheers,
Zeke Federman - President of Sierra Rock Climbing School, Inc
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karsten delap
climber
IN
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Jul 31, 2010 - 08:41am PT
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Zeke,
Maybe you should re-read my post. I am for guides working for guide services. I think that eventually after you have a huge clientele and lots of experience branching off isn't a bad idea. WIth that being said I still work for guide services and will for a long time with the occasional trip here or there under the CGF.
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zeker
Trad climber
bishop
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Jul 31, 2010 - 12:26pm PT
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Sorry Karsten. I deleted your name from my post. Thanks for being supportive of guide services. We are all doing our best and good job for the public! The guides and the services!
Cheers,
Zeke
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apogee
climber
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Jul 31, 2010 - 12:41pm PT
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The picture Zeke paints is nearly dead-on consistent with my program's cost structures- a primary difference being that our guides & instructors are paid as regular employees, not independent contractors, and we carry worker's compensation coverage for them as well- this adds significant expense, and further detracts from that bottom line. (Edit): Additionally, we provide a modest fixed travel stipend to help cover fuel costs when guides are driving significant distances to get to the site.
He is also absolutely correct that small group (1-2 persons) private guiding is the 'worst-case' scenario, from a business/financial standpoint. Medium to larger group programs do much better. Still, as a guide service, you must provide all of these program types, and hope that those that are more profitable balance out those that aren't. The only means by which to improve the picture for small group/private guiding is to raise the rate- $300-$350 is typical in this area for one client/one day- and many potential clients balk at that rate as it is. It is doubtful that those rates could be pushed much higher- even if one service did so, another one would not, and the client would be lost.
Of course, Coz will likely chime in here soon and say that this is exactly the problem- we all have lowball expectations. But again, his context for guiding is different than Zeke's or mine- due to his 'name brand', he targets high end clients and contracts. It's not the same comparison.
Combatting the misperceptions of guides as they relate to program costs and revenue is a never-ending battle. Actually, that's not totally true- for the very few guides who step into program ownership and management, their enlightenment comes pretty quickly.
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zeker
Trad climber
bishop
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Learning Disabilities:
Anyone on this forum or anywhere else who has suggested any learning disabled person (climbing guide/instructor or otherwise) would ever use the disability as any level of "excuses" for anything, should read the below quotes on learning disabilities and see links below on learning disabilities. Learning disabled people are typically very embarrassed about the disability and if they get the guts to bring it to the attention of the school, college training facility/association, etc, that they attend or wish to attend, they should be commended, as it is not easy to admit you are learning disabled and is certainly never admitted for the purposes of making "excuses" for performance on exams or otherwise. I suggest people on this forum become educated on LD matters before they speak about them.
I have been documented learning disabled since I was a young child and had appropriate and legally afforded accommodations throughout grade school, College and on the WMI - WEMT exam in my adult years as well. I am not embarrassed nor should any other learning disabled person be embarrassed to ask for and/or receive appropriate legal educational and/or exam/assessment accommodations for a learning disabled person. And I have never, could never and will never use my learning disabilities as "excuses" for anything.
Read these Learning Disability Facts and Links (quoted from the linked web sites):
Know Your Rights
"If you a planning to attend a college with an enrollment of 25,000 students, then approximately 550 of those students have learning disabilities, writes Howard Eaton in his book Self Advocacy. Remember that you are not asking for a favor; you are asking for a right that is guaranteed by the federal government. As a person with learning disabilities, you are entitled to receive certain accommodations. In fact, the Americans with Disabilities Act says, no discrimination should take place against anybody who is disabled. This includes persons with learning disabilities. Colleges are required to allow you an equal opportunity for success. Your job is to work hard to take advantage of that opportunity."
http://www.ldanatl.org/aboutld/adults/post_secondary/college.asp
"Q: Aren’t learning disabilities a modern excuse for poor school performance?
A: The term “learning disability” came into use relatively recently. Although Sam Kirk and Barbara Bateman had used it in print a year earlier, a speech by Kirk to a group of concerned parents in 1963 is often cited as the basis for using the term to describe these children. However, the difficulties that students faced due to learning disabilities were not new. Before the term was used widely, labels such as mild mental retardation, minimal brain dysfunction, dyslexia, perceptual impairment, neurological impairment, and slow learner described children having similar difficulties in school. Now, many of these difficulties have been subsumed by learning disabilities. "
http://www.teachingld.org/understanding/
Cheers,
Zeke Federman
President - Sierra Rock Climbing School, Inc
PCGI Certified Multi-Pitch Guide
& Wilderness-EMT
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2010 - 09:35pm PT
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Zeke,
your my bro, and it makes me laugh to think that we will now argue on this stupid site in this stupid medium. Your cost structure is not correct, point blank. Costs as listed on your web page.
3/4 Day Private Rates: (6 hour maximum)
$325.00 for one person $195.00 each for two $165.00 each for three $135.00 each for four $115.00 each for five or more
Full Day Private Rates: (8 hour maximum)
$365.00 for one person
$225.00 each for two
$185.00 each for three
$155.00 each for four $135.00 each for five or more
formatting sucks from the cut an paste, but what ever. I am very thankful for all the work I have received from you over the years. And you work your ass off and deserve to make good money, more than your making, but so do I. But simple fact, you wouldn't do it if there wasn't money involved. You are one of the best business men I know. Sure the profit margin is much higher in the classes and groups, but still money to be made in private guiding.
For the record I'm not anti-guide service by any means. I just realize that us guides, as independent contractors, are in fact business partners with the guide services. with a few exceptions, like johns business. Good on ya john for doing that!!!!!!!!
As to Johns comments about my age and life style, cant tell you whats in the future. Except I wont ever live in a urban area, I'm a hill billy and proud!!!!
P.S. to have prejudices about any from of education and LDs is retarded.....LOL
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zeker
Trad climber
bishop
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Seth,
You need to reread my last post. I'm Not arguing with you brother, just trying to help you understand the reality of the rock climbing guide business. I was not talking about my rates. You said $300.00 per day I used that $300.00 figure, which is prob close to national average or bit higher maybe and used $105.00 profit margin and "said" rate of $300.00 per day it was an example, bro. So my rates are $365.00, so what, add $65.00 bucks into those #'s I ran down for ya, up credit card % fee and a few more bucks for higher guide wages, my service makes another 35 bucks or so profit for that same day, big wow! bottem line, no Guides are getting Middled. If you are going to work as a contractor or employee for any guide service, it might be important to embrace these facts. And the fact is, the profit is just not there for private guiding, or even in the guide service business in general, you can believe what you want, I know the cold hard facts. I'm a service manager, been so for 10 years now. Believe me bro, I guide and started guiding cause I love it. Yes, I'm a good business man as you say, but if I wanted to make good/real $ with my biz skills, I would start a new business and guide for fun/hobby. The profit and good $ from guiding or running a guide service is just not a reality. Its a very modest living guiding and/or owning a rock climbing guide service. Maybe as single guy no kids, no house payment, such as yourself owning the service and profits made seem good to you, but anyone in a traditional life/family role, house payments, kids, etc , etc who is guiding full time or running a guide business is far from raking in the $ and its a hard job all around and the profit and pay is fairly low compared to other professional venues where people work long hours, are skilled and good business people as well. Just the facts bro.
Cheers,
Zeke
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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zeke, seth--
there's isn't any money anywhere else these days either.
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