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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 22, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
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Hey folks,
I'm probably gonna get slandered here, or flagged or post deleted but oh well..... Do what you must. This is not intended as advertisement though it will come off that way. Lots of professional guides on this site and this is information you should be made aware of. Enjoy the read, be safe, and have a great time rock climbing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
European Rock Climbing Guiding Opportunities -
Several PCGI board members and PCGI certified guides have spent a considerable amount of time and energy over the past 6 months looking into the laws governing rock climbing instruction and guiding in Europe. As a result of these efforts, it has been made abundantly clear that the majority of European countries have absolutely no rock climbing guide certification and/or mountain guide certification requirements. Some European countries do have IFMGA certification requirements, most of which are in very specific areas. In consideration of these discoveries, starting as early as January 2011, as the law allows for it in any given European country, PCGI intends to make its insurance and access program available for PCGI certified rock climbing guides wishing to engage in commercial rock climbing guiding/instruction in many European countries. Please see the list of countries below and the corresponding status of rock climbing guide certification requirements. Several European countries are not listed, as more information is still needed to fully understand the laws within those countries.
The sources of the following information include but are not limited to the following organizations: IFMGA/UIAGM and the Swiss Mountain Guides Association.
PCGI has discovered the following facts:
Greece - Greece has no rock climbing guide/instructor certification or mountain guide certification requirements.
Spain - Spain has no rock climbing guide/instructor certification or mountain guide certification requirements. Spain is currently reviewing all of its outdoor sports policies and hence the laws for rock climbing guiding/instruction may change in the near future.
Switzerland - Switzerland has no rock climbing guide/instructor certification or mountain guide certification requirements in the following three specific Swiss states/cantons: Obwalden, St.Gallen & Tessin. All other Swiss cantons/states require IFMGA certification.
Italy - Italy has no rock climbing guide/instructor certification or mountain guide certification requirements in most of the country, except in the Alps, where IFMGA certification is required.
Germany - Germany has no rock climbing guide/instructor certification or mountain guide certification requirements in most of the country, except in Bayern (Bavaria) where IFMGA certification is required.
Malta - Malta has no rock climbing guide/instructor certification or mountain guide certification requirements.
Seth Zaharias
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 23, 2010 - 01:31pm PT
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bump
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Cosmin
Big Wall climber
Europe
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<<Romania - Romania has no rock climbing guide/instructor or mountain guide certification requirements.>>
Wrong.
In Romania one ca engage officially in guiding activities (tourism and otherwise) only with a valid guide's licence. There is also a fairly recently founded Association of Mt Guides that certifies mt guides (non IFGMA).
Insofar as climbing, mountaineering and related instruction is concerned ONLY F.R.A.E., the Romanian Federation of Mountaineering and Rock Climbing (National Governing Body) can certify instructors and coaches in any of these branches, certifications that are professional titles. In consequence one cannot engage in mountaineering/climbing instruction (legally) without a FRAE licence or a FRAE sanctioned licence. However FRAE is happy to (and had always done so) to recognise certifications form other countries and to cooperate with such partners - so far being the case of IFGMA guides, ENSA (FR) instructors and BMC (UK) certifications.
I hope this helps.
Cosmin Andron, PhD
Chairman of the Mountaineering Board of the Romanian Federation of Mountaineering and Rock Climbing
Mountaineering Instructor
FRAE Staff Instructor
http://www.fralpinism.ro
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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How about France, Great Britain, Norway etc?
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Decko
Trad climber
Colorado
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SWEET
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jul 17, 2010 - 06:54am PT
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ah, the pcgi gang.
bottom line, the alps are locked up, a lot like yosemite. they tell me you need amga rock, alpine and ski certification to guide in the alps. ne c'est pas?
um, don't look now but the apuanians, the mountains of northwest tuscany, are wide open. lots of rugged rock and undeveloped climbing. even a nice little quarry by a town named carrara, where my mother was born. bella ciao.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jul 17, 2010 - 04:00pm PT
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well all of switzerland is alps, but if there are open areas, that's encouraging. my interest would be trying to guide american groups that could benefit from my knowledge of italian culture and language and some familiarity with the dolomites based on one climbing trip. but i assume the dolo's are closed, except to the super-certified. they're pretty stuffy about those things.
a little hard to understand why you'd need ski certification for a summer rock trip or rock certification to guide a little backcountry touring--based on conversations i had with some of you guys last year. do i remember it correctly?
the apuanian alps, as they're usually called, are not part of the alps at all, and not part of the appennines, the central range of italy. they're off by themselves, and considered italy's greatest remaining wilderness. the backcountry there can be quite rugged, and i know that climbing isn't well-developed. haven't explored it for a close look at the rock, but there's lots of it. climbing and hitting the highlights of tuscany would make quite a tour package these days.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 17, 2010 - 04:49pm PT
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Isn't there some group that, fearful (perhaps with good reason) of not cutting it with the AMGA (which has parity with the UIAGM), cooked up their own little mutual back-slapping association and try to come off like they are as skilled, experienced, knowledgeable and competent?
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zeker
Trad climber
bishop
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Jul 17, 2010 - 07:21pm PT
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See below, it is a copy and paste of one email from the Swiss Mountain Guide Association stating no IFMGA cert required in Obwalden, St.Gallen, Tessin. It is for real with misspelled "mounain" and all!
Email the Swiss yourself if you don't believe me. They were very nice and helpful. I suggest doing you own research and don't believe or disbelieve what you read or what posters say, or what you think might be true. I have a string of emails from the IFMGA supporting the fact that no certs are required in Spain, Greece, Italy (IFMGA required only in Itailian Alps) and in Germany(IFMGA required in Bavaria only) Email the IFMGA/UIAGM your self and ask them if you don't believe me. I am not going to post entire strings of emails over long periods of time. This info is not being made up. Do us all a favor and please fact check it all your self if you are in doubt. Hope this helps.
"Hallo Zeke
In all the mounain cantons in Switzerland, except Obwalden, St.Gallen, Tessin, rock climbing guides have to be IFMGA. You will find the laws on our website.
Best regards, Wolfgang Woernhard
Schweizer Bergfuehrerverband
Association Suisse des Guides de Montagne Geschaeftsstelle Hadlaubstrasse 49
8006 Zurich
Phone +41 44 360 53 66
Skype wwoernhard
e-mail sbv-asgm@4000plus.ch
http://www.4000plus.ch"
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jul 18, 2010 - 09:04am PT
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ron, these guys are all amga certified. they formed their own group a couple of years ago for different reasons. i've taken some amga training and some pcgi training, and i think they're quite comparable, maybe even identical, except that the amga courses cost about three times as much and you'll have more trustafarians for classmates.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jul 18, 2010 - 09:22am PT
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i don't think it would hurt to voice my quarrel with certification itself here. i've been climbing for more than 30 years and i have a (fingers crossed) rather stellar safety record. there's a long list of certified guides who have died in the line of duty, so to speak, and that doesn't bear the glory of doing the same in war. certification is something that assures insurance underwriters who don't understand climbing. it's also a useful myth in advertising.
i think both the pcgi and the amga make a big mistake by relying on timed performance of newly learned, fairly arcane guide skills for their certification tests. the skills are all fine, but an experienced, resourceful climber doesn't really need them, and complicated rope tricks are the last thing you need to be trying to conjure up during a crisis high on a crag.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:58am PT
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ron, these guys are all amga certified. they formed their own group a couple of years ago for different reasons.
You sure about that?
I got my AMGA certification 20 years ago, and haven't guided for a while, but haven't exactly fallen off the face of the earth.
If the courses are the same how come they haven't got UIAGM parity?
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zeker
Trad climber
bishop
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Jul 18, 2010 - 12:40pm PT
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Tony,
As I think you know, I am a director of a climbing school http://www.sierrarockclimbingschool.com/guides.html and have been for many years. The fact is most major liability insurance underwriters do not require guide certification. They require operations plan, business plan, balance sheets (if existing business), areas of operation, CPR and First Aid for guides, past insurance records (if any) as a well as list of guides and guides experience. Sometimes they give discounts for certifications or new certifications each year typically in the 10% range.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 18, 2010 - 12:44pm PT
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What is "PCGI"?
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zeker
Trad climber
bishop
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Jul 18, 2010 - 12:47pm PT
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Have a good forum day, I gotta go guide/work. See ya
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2010 - 04:18pm PT
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Cosmin,
sorry I forwarded on miss-information regarding Romania. Lots of research was done before this article was made public, but alas some of the info we gathered from Europe was a bit unclear...... Thank you for correcting this error.
Pate, many, many man hours were used in the collection of this data. In America we (the guide community) have really put ourselves under the impression that we CANNOT guide internationally unless we (as individuals) are IFMGA certified. This fact is not TRUE. I, for one, would like to see American Rock climbing guides have more knowledge as to what their legal opportunities are.
Piton Ron, I assure you that I and my colleagues at PCGI are "Skilled, experienced, knowledgeable, and competent" If you would like a copy of both my guiding and personal climbing resumes, please ask and I will post them. I presume that you are interested in truth rather than perpetuating ignorance and hostility.
Tony Bird,
I agree time limits are not the best way to score someones proficiency with a certain rescue technique. However, and this has been discussed in great length, any other method that we could come up with is just too damn subjective....... If you have ideas please let us know. And Tony, I think you sharing your first hand knowledge of Italy with American clients sounds great!!!!!!!!!!!!
Guides...... Were all a bunch of over grown 12 year old refusing to grow up!!!!!!!!!!!!! Except Zeker, he's a adult!!!! Seth
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jul 18, 2010 - 06:51pm PT
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i guess the requirement of certification has more to do with land managers than insurance. as i understand, a guide or a guide service has to get an official permit to guide professionally, whether from the nps, usfs, blm or a state or county park department. you can't just go in, certified or not, insured or not, if you've got paying customers interested in climbing. it becomes quite a political game. it makes it difficult, perhaps impossible, for a guide to take a client out "anyplace" in a given region they may want to go. but why shouldn't a guide be able to do that?
if you're not charging money, it's a different story. idiots teaching idiots for free is okay anywhere, and that has been my "guiding" experience, as i say with a decent safety record. medusa does it that way too now, and he can make a 5.13 climber out of you. if he could ever tie into the market for that, i'll bet he'd have to give up plumbing.
in yosemite national park, the yms seems to enjoy an exclusive monopoly of the most attractive climbing venue in our country, a grandchilding-in of the chummy curry company arrangement. i've had one of the most famous of all yosemite climbers--hehe, wouldn't you like to know his name--tell me, pssst, i've done lots of pirate guiding in the park.
i'm probably getting too old to get into professional guiding anyway, but i still see us missing a big boat here in all the foreigners with high interest in climbing the famous rock of california. these people come here anyway, and most of them are just begging for someone to take them by the hand, speak a little of their language, show them around and give them a taste of climbing so they can go home with a few good hero shots. our economy here is about dead anyway--can't we try to catch some of the green coming through?
pcgi deals strictly with rock, and i can see where the districts of the alps would want winter mountaineering certification because of the year-round potential for bad weather. we hiked up through six inches of fresh snow in the dolo's in july.
as far as certification testing goes, seth, i don't know what to suggest. i'm more familiar with the pcgi tests since the amga workshops i did were part of their convention and just sort of a sampler of what they had to offer. having put a couple kids through the public school system, i have to say i don't think teacher certification is worth a hell's hoot. it's an onerous myth which tends to discourage the creativity essential in education. a lot of people scrape together money for private schools that don't even require certification--maybe that's because the certification system has become a negative incentive. i saw an ad in the sierra last year for a certified fishing guide. but it didn't say anything about refunding the fee if you get skunked.
ron, you'll have to conduct your own little witch hunt. i've seen amga certification on the resumes of a number of people involved.
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