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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Nov 18, 2005 - 12:33am PT
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Jody...I think we are off-topic here. Just trying to keep it light.
Also, I think you are being trolled.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta Squamton
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Nov 18, 2005 - 12:48am PT
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I think this whole thread is Bullshit Troll™.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Nov 18, 2005 - 12:50am PT
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Jody remember this post from Juan?
Get a f*#king life, stop being so interested in what others are doing or saying. You are in the minority if you do not understand me.
Juanito "All my posts are Trolls" De Fuca
Jeff=Juan=Lois...maybe
Lois..sorry to intrude. Have a good nite.
Sh#t,.maybe I'm being trolled.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Nov 18, 2005 - 01:05am PT
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Jody- I didn't write that, it was from previous post by Juan. I was trying to point out how you were being trolled.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Nov 18, 2005 - 01:19am PT
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Jody- looks like Saddam pulled the wool over a lot of people eyes.
Also looks like the our sources on Saddam didn't know shit!
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta Squamton
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Nov 18, 2005 - 01:50am PT
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For the record, LEB is knott Bullshit Troll™...
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WoodyS
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 18, 2005 - 03:14am PT
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Most of the above was beaten to death on the Iraq thread.
We are in Iraq; all the polemic about the past--Clinton, Bush, WMD etc.--is now irrelevant. We must deal with the present circumstance. A pullout would be seen by the various terrorist organizations as a defeat for the US. We must make the best of this situation or, I believe, pay a terrible price in the future. This war has stirred up a hornet's nest, but the hornets were coming for us anyway. Don't forget all the attacts over the last couple of decades going back to the Reagan Administration, Nine Eleven being the worst. If the Democrats take over the government in 2008, they will have this issue front and center on their plate. It won't be something that can be pushed aside or ignored. Not meeting it head on and destroying these radicals will ultimately result in calamity for this world. All the political posturing, backstabbing and CYA going on now in our government is pointless and sterile. How to win this thing in the long run is all that matters. It's time for those parasites in Washington to get together and start doing just that.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 18, 2005 - 05:54am PT
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Again, the sad reality is neither party, nor the American people have the stomach for what it would require to "win" in Iraq. The surreal part of the neocon approach to this wars was the twin, interdependent fantasies that a) once Saddam fell a huge majority of Iraqi's would be behind us 100%. And b) that because of 'a' we could roll through with a very fast, light, and mobile force without the need to secure pretty much anything as we went. Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, and Cheney were repeatedly warned against this strategy by a unanimous chorus of career intel, political, and military officiers and analysts.
At every turn it was succinctly explained to them again, and again, that the goodwill of the Iraqi people was wholly dependent on maintaining or immediately reestablishing internal security, power, and water and that would require close to a 300-500k US force level as well as an intact or rapidly reconstituted Iraqi security or military force. They were also warned ad infinitum about the need to secure all weapons depots in the country, all of whose locations were known in advance, in order to deprive any potential insurgents of their primary weapon - the IED's that have caused most all of our casualties.
Cheney's and Rumsfeld's blithe and wholesale dismissal of the repeated recommendations of career professionals was abhorent, arrogant, and directly responsible for the disaster that is now Iraq. The American puplic would never have signed on for this war if they had been told what was really required to do the job right - and that's why we went in so light and hoping for the best. But now we're there, and calls for withdrawl before restoring security and infrastructure will be viewed within the Middle East, China, and the EU as clear sign of our impotence and lack of [societal] will to endure hardship. This will result in a steady decline of US power and influence in the world and will embolden China to more rapidly attempt to surplant us as the dominant force over all of Asia, which they consider their natural sphere of influence and not ours.
"Wining" at this point would require a doubling of force levels, agressive clean up and border maintenance, a trained and equipped Iraqi security force, and a highly compressed infrastructure rebuilding effort like the world has never seen. The American public, unfortunately, only signed up for the "war lite" they were sold by the administration where everything would go our way. That was never in the cards given the incompetence of the men calling the shots and now the cost of cleaning up their unnecessary mess is truly staggering if we were to do it right. But that's not going to happen, so far from making us more secure, this adventurous squandering of US military might has and will make us ever more vunerable to terrorist attacks and unanswerable strategic jousting in Asia, likely starting with forced repatriation of Taiwan in the '10-'12 timeframe.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Nov 18, 2005 - 07:19am PT
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Jody: "but it really doesn't take guts when you have the truth on your side..."
Is that one from your dad?
My mom always said: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
Lois, not at a bad post at all on the Clinton BJ. I agree, and when the Republicans' agenda to get Clinton through Whitewater or any other means panned out, they must have been sweating it until Monica came along.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Nov 18, 2005 - 07:28am PT
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WoodyS, your post today (November 18) makes a lot of sense. I do not like war (I don't think most people do) and I do not like the agenda behind this war. I still think that much of it was driven by oil, big business and Bush's desire to vindicate his father, but of course there are other issues in the wider picture, so I am not naive enough to think that "it's all about oil".
But you are correct. We are there and pulling out without realising some sort of 'success' (whatever that may be) would send the wrong message to the world: terrorists, China, our allies etc....
However, hand on heart, I do not know what the solution is, though several posters on this thread have come up with some good ideas, most notable Healyje.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Nov 18, 2005 - 10:39am PT
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Great post Healjye. I agree.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 18, 2005 - 11:21am PT
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Even if we were able to stay there a long time, we would not achieve our goals. I'm going to suck and repost my response from another thread.
We were wrong to go in and we're going to lose. It's easy to see. How long would the United States have to be occupied by a foreign power before you gave up resisting them? Only after a government that was squarely opposed to the invaders was truly in power. Don't think the Iraqis aren't human and won't hang on to their Arab dignity.
We will be screwed sooner or later but will have to leave sooner because our economy is threatened to the core by extreme deficits in the current account.
We took a secular country and turned it into an Islamic state and friend of Iran and it cost us hundreds of billions while at the same time letting the criminals responsible for 9-11 go free. Time will tell if I'm talking about Bin Laden and Mullah Omar or Dick Cheney.
The last bit of Western imperialism carved up Iraq into a country that never existed before. It's full of masses of people who don't get along...Kurds, Sunnis, and Shia. That problem won't go away when we do and is part of the reason Saddam was such a bastard in repressing his people, now we are doing it the same way Saddam did, devastating resistance in Falluja by wrecking the majority of it, even using Phosphorus weapons that melted peoples flesh while their clothes and bone stayed intact.
You want a REAL solution? Divide the country into three. Kurdistan, Sunni-vale, and Shiite-hole. Let the Kurds take care of themselves. They've been doing it so far and they are basically our friends throughout. We can be their best oil customer. Just keep Turkey off their backs.
Let Iran do the Peacekeeping in Shiite-Hole. They are going to basically rule the place in the future anyway. Let them get killed by insurgents. If the insurgents leave them alone, then fine, our Iran relations will have improved and Shiite-hole will have peace.
Let Saudi Arabia do the peacekeeping in Sunni-vale. Again, either they die or there will be peace. Better them spending and dying than us. In the end, the Sunnis will align with Sunnis anyway. You can't friggin fight it so why pour money against it?
Meanwhile, the Saudis supplied the majority of the 9-11 highjackers and 9-11 money was traced to Saudi Arabia, while Bush flew Bin Laden family members out of the US when the airports were closed after 9-11 and still LITERALLY kisses the undemocratic kings and princes of Saud while spewing bile about fighting terror and promoting democracy.
But basically, by having Muslims peacekeep Muslims of the same sect and race, the tensions go down and the Muslims don' think we're out to get them anymore.
Again, Iraq can't stand as a singular country without an oppressive ruler anytime soon. It probably would have been better to just push Saddam for reforms like we did with Libya. If you want peace and democracy in Iraq, you'll have to split it up into three or the hell will never end.
As for the US staying there until it's fixed. It's like you "accidentally" raped somebody and figured you better stay there and tie her up until she calms down enough to resume her life. Ain't going to happen and it ain't right.
I suppose I could have said it all nicer but it's true. I said it all before the war too. It's all on the net. Am I smarter than Bush and Cheney? I hope not. They deserve a trial in the Hague. History will indict them, mark my words.
Within 10 years from now, energy depletion and economic meltdown will begin to devastate this country. I'm really sorry to predict that. Probably sooner but perhaps later. The writing is on the wall and is practically unarguable if you study without denial or whistling in the dark. How long can we run huge deficits will no hope of EVER balancing the budget before the chickens come home? Do the math. When it happens, both Democrats and Republicans will be to blame but this admin is the worst ever.
Investigate and Impeach Bush. We won't but history will.
Funny how 3000 people can die in a terror attack and we feel we have the right to invade and kill innocent people everywhere, but we kill thousands wrongly in a military attack and expect no consequences.
Time to change our own hearts and minds if we expect others to change theirs.
peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 18, 2005 - 11:27am PT
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Excellent post Karl
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Nov 18, 2005 - 11:30am PT
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Funny how 3000 people can die in a terror attack and we feel we have the right to invade and kill innocent people everywhere, but we kill thousands wrongly in a military attack and expect no consequences
This one sentence says it better than this entire thread, by far.
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Hootervillian
climber
Three Falls, CBAD
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Nov 18, 2005 - 11:42am PT
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Cheney's and Rumsfeld's blithe and wholesale dismissal of the repeated recommendations of career professionals was abhorent, arrogant, and directly responsible for the disaster that is now Iraq.
the incompetence of the men calling the shots
LOL
blithe and wholesale dismissal and incompetence? it's curious how that incompetence undertone works it's way into the public discourse. follow the money trail, global level profiteers are hardly incompetent. i'm afraid we the people have to wear the incompetent label for failure to harness emotional duality and allow the acceleration of our own demise for the benefit of so very few. couple of billion a week for many years is the 'solution' for some. are you and yours part of 'that' group?
Ed. Karl, thank YOU for not marginalizing criminal behavior.
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nature
climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Nov 18, 2005 - 11:53am PT
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Forest wrote Thanks for ignoring all my posts, Jody
Um... You should be use to the by now. Present logical thought. Get ignored. Lather, rinse, REPEAT.
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pc
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 18, 2005 - 12:28pm PT
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Thanks Karl. Nice post.
And Sunnivale's not that bad. I lived there once.
pc
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WoodyS
Trad climber
Riverside
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Nov 18, 2005 - 01:16pm PT
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In WW11 both parties came together and worked for the common good of the country. That's not happening now. As I stated above, this problem is not going away no matter who is in charge in this country. The fighting back and forth between the parties is only exacerbating the situation, and will erode the morale of our troops. Congress, along with administration representatives, should get together in closed session and start working on a solution to the present strategy in Iraq and form a future strategy for dealing with world wide terrorism. This public, political catfight has must stop. We need statesmen on both sides of the issue to get control of the infants in both parties and find solutions.
Whatever happens vis a vis Iraq, I believe we will establish a base in the Kurdish territories where the US is very much liked and admired. This will secure the Kurds against all surrounding countries and give us a base for a rapid reaction force in a critically important and unstable part of the world. Remember, the Shias and Sunnis hate each other and are in competition for the ultimate control of Islam. And remember the oil and the nukes. If isolationism infects this country again, in a world so tightly netted together, with the weapons that now exist, you better dig your shelters deep and stock them well because you'll be in them for a long time--assuming you survive.
We also have to come to some recognition as to our overall reponsibilities as the only power able to play world policeman. If we choose not to play that role, some other power will fill the void. That's the unfortunate reality for us. Without some power or combination thereof maintaining world stability, this world will rip apart. Natural resources, religion and economic interests will compel social and political dynamics that can't be foreseen. It will, though, probably be quite an unpleasant experience for all concerned.
The constant bickering about what happened in the past is a fool's venture. Our energies must be directed forward,
and the sooner our elected representatives get with it the better. The longer they flail at each other, the worse the situation is going to get, and the more difficult it will be to solve.
The administration and both parties are responsible for--equally-- this mess. Going all the way back to Carter, our leaders have failed to recognize what was coming. And, as the problem grew, both parties played politics with it or tried to ignore it. There's been enough blindness, incompetence and outright stupidity on both sides to earn historical condemnation .
What's going on in Washington is exactly what's going on on this site: fingerpointing, ranting back and forth, trying to stick the other side with responsibility for the screwups, spins and selected memories. Face it, we're in the soup because our leadership's been screwing up for over thirty years.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Nov 18, 2005 - 01:42pm PT
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WoodyS wrote: Face it, we're in the soup because our leadership's been screwing up for over thirty years.
Bullsh#t...we are there because a number of dumbshits Bush, Cheney & Rummie) make the decision to go.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 18, 2005 - 04:03pm PT
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Karl,
The partitioning of Iraq is both a viable long term solution and a fairly decent exit strategy now that we have allowed the country to devolve into chaos. Our two sets of thoughts are not necessarily incompatible. The question is how one achieves a stable Iraq, be it in that quise or any another. The problems, however, are twofold: first is one of execution, the second of appearances and world opinion.
With regard to execution it is a matter of how will partitioning will be accomplished? In an orderly manner? Or through a long and bloody civil war that further inflames Turkey, Iran, and the greater Middle East and leaves Sinni Iraq a breeding ground for terrorists on the order of Chechnya. A fast withdrawl - that is one prior to establishing a viable Iraqi security force and repairing the infrastructure - will result in a quick descent into the latter and is the likeliest scenario to play out given political realities here at home in the face of '06 and '08 elections.
As to world opinion, as I've said, a rapid pullout will be universally and summarily interpreted as a rout and a clear sign of US impotence - and not of our raw military capacity, but of our unwillingness to wield that might decisively and effectively. It will be regarded as more a cultural indictment than a military or political one - that we individually can not endure the sacrifices and pain required to hold as a society when the going gets tough. The United States still has an enormous capacity to rise to a true threat, and wise leaders on the world stage understand that, but we will have now exposed our intolerance for hardship and shown the threshold required for a truly effective U.S. response to be exceptionally high. Right off the bat it will be interpreted as being a higher threshold than will be triggered in a standoff over Taiwan. This will lead to some exceedingly dangerous regional brinkmanship.
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