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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Nov 16, 2005 - 08:25pm PT
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Hey man! What happened to vapid? Quick edit that link into some astrophysics or earthquake 5hit. Or use one of your other aviators. Ah, I get it. That comes next. Never mind.
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Saratoga Springs, NY
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Nov 16, 2005 - 08:39pm PT
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Hey Jody....stop your whingeing politicking...
2,000+ American dead in Iraq.
What for?
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dirtbag
climber
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Nov 16, 2005 - 08:41pm PT
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Jody I'd like to keep this a civil discussion even though I admit that I've gotten on your case pretty hard before. I apologize for that and I'm going to try to be a better person if you'll meet half-way.
But I do want to know, how can one "quietly voice disagreement" and still effectuate a change in policy? It really sounds like you mean opposition should roll over and give in.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Northern Mexico
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2005 - 08:43pm PT
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You got that right Jody!
2000 Americans have died in Iraq so we could cross it off the list of countries to worry about attacking us.
2 to go. Syria and Iran.
Live Every Breath
Juanito
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Saratoga Springs, NY
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Nov 16, 2005 - 08:47pm PT
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"2000 Americans have died in Iraq so we could cross it off the list of countries to worry about attacking us. "
There's no country going to attack you Juan, just a a bunch of idiots spread across the globe.
Say again, why have 2,000+ Americans died in Iraq?
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Northern Mexico
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2005 - 08:54pm PT
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To stop Saddamm from using his WMD on us. That's why they died.
Juanito
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Saratoga Springs, NY
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Nov 16, 2005 - 08:57pm PT
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Say again Juan, why have 2,000+ Americans died in Iraq?
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Northern Mexico
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2005 - 08:58pm PT
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What are you thick?
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Saratoga Springs, NY
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Nov 16, 2005 - 09:01pm PT
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Say again Juan, why have 2,000+ Americans died in Iraq?
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Saratoga Springs, NY
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Nov 16, 2005 - 09:36pm PT
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"I don't know Mick, seems like you should ask Bill Clinton that question"
Better to ask the American people.
No disrespect, but in my ten years in the USA, and I love the dam country and its people, but all I see is money above anything, I mean anything, and people continually pointing the finger at each other...it's there fault, not ours. This place is f*#ked and it's f*#king it up for the rest of the planet. People think they have it good but it could be so much better. Most live like rats in small vinyl-sided boxes.
Doesn't matter whether it's off-road vehicles in the Sierra, oil in ANWR, the internet or national security, or a football game...the country is totally polarised and wrong on both counts.
The frightening thing is that with the merging of entertainment and news there is no truth anymore.
Hey, but I'm OK Jack....what the freak do I care.
Mick
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malabarista
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Nov 16, 2005 - 09:38pm PT
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I posted this on the other thread but I think it's more relevent here:
Clinton just stated in a speech what my Dad (WW2 vet, military government of Japan) has been saying since shortly after the invasion:
"The mistake that they made is that when they kicked out Saddam, they decided to dismantle the whole authority structure of Iraq. ... We never sent enough troops and didn't have enough troops to control or seal the borders," Clinton said.
As the borders were unsealed, "the terrorists came in," he said.
Clinton said it would have been better if the United States had left Iraq's "fundamental military and social and police structure intact."
Here is the source article:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051116/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_clinton
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Nov 16, 2005 - 09:40pm PT
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Jody wrote: To answer your question...a murderous dictator who threatened us and made his own people live in fear has been removed. The first Arab country in HISTORY has been holding democratic elections. They are on the verge of being the first democratic country in the Arab world(think how the citizens of other Arab countries will view their FREE neighbors). One less dirtbag(sorry dirtbag) that wanted to kill Americans...shall I go on?
Continue on ...and then wake up.
You have no grasp of reality on this issue. Your rantings on the past have nothing to do with the now. GWB make the descion to go to war not Bill Clinton.
I echo Mick's words. Over 2,000 US kids dead. Countless Iraq's dead. That sad part is that there was no plan for this war then and no plan now.
As a Christian and someone who is pro-life you seems to have no problem on the loss of life in this debacle.
You can't have both ways brother...are you pro-life or not??
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Saratoga Springs, NY
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Nov 16, 2005 - 09:46pm PT
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I couldn't give a toss who is in power in the US as far as being a Democrat or a Republican.
It's just important that you have someone who is honest and the current President is far from that.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Nov 16, 2005 - 10:01pm PT
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Fattrad wrote: Oh no Juan,
A president that is a liar, there were no WMD's when Clinton said those things. Where did he get his info, the CIA, DOD, NSA?
Yeah...he was wrong. He also didn't declare war. Bush pulled the trigger...not Billy-boy. Don't you ever get tired of blaming Clinton for Bush's woes??
The sad part is that GWB made the decision on war with extremely weak evidence.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Nov 16, 2005 - 10:14pm PT
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Fattrad wrote: Bob,
Each President, Federal Reserve Chair, Supreme Court Justice, etc. must work with what his/her predecesors have left behind. Clinton did not start the war, but he had a chance to get OBL but declined because of a Saudi Prince. All of the events are connected, Bush & Co. merely chose to re-structure a problem that had been festering for thirty years.
Jody's evil twin.
Am I missing something? Was OBL sighted in Iraq? Bush also had a chance to get him in Afganistian...but blew it.
And now we are fighting him in Iraq?
Bush should have lay out his real agenda to the public. Maybe...just maybe this wouldn't be such a hard pill to swallow for most people.
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Saratoga Springs, NY
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Nov 16, 2005 - 10:24pm PT
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"Each President, Federal Reserve Chair, Supreme Court Justice, etc. must work with what his/her predecesors have left behind. Clinton did not start the war, but he had a chance to get OBL but declined because of a Saudi Prince. All of the events are connected, Bush & Co. merely chose to re-structure a problem that had been festering for thirty years. "
There you go fatrad just getting sucked in to the old ' it was him, it was him, not me', do some never grow up? Weren't we doing that when we were schoolboys.
Saddam is gone, thank goodness. So XX,000 a year won't get murdered by Saddam every year, but still XX,000 get murdered on the streets and in the homes of the USA each year. XX,000 from hunger, and the sword, and the gun, and by AIDS every year.
What is the difference between some banker in the Twin Tower getting murdered and some 2 year old dying of malnutrition in Ethiopa, a grandmother murdered in Tibet by the Chinese, some French girl murdered by a mob in Paris?
Absolutely nothing. You are pissing in the wind.
Stay Human.
Mick
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pighumper
climber
Marin
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Nov 16, 2005 - 10:50pm PT
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"2000 Americans have died in Iraq so we could cross it off the list of countries to worry about attacking us. 2 to go. Syria and Iran."
Juanita... they will never attack us as an army they can't because they would be destroyed. They can and will continue terrorist activities. Do you REALLY think you can cross Iraq off the list just beacuse Bush flew on to an aircraft carrier in the middle east and proclaimed "Mission Accomplished". There are a many parents of dead soldiers who may not agree with that statement.
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pighumper
climber
Marin
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Nov 16, 2005 - 11:13pm PT
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Jody... I agree with what you are saying in part. The Democrats are disgusting. They supported the invasion and they probably did so knowing WMD was questionable. Politically they needed to look strong like our "War President". Now that the war is becoming unpopular they cut and run.
That said... we completed the invasion and defeated the army. Now what? Do you think as a nation they will embrace Democracy? One of the fundamental principles of our system is separation of church and state. Religious fundamentalism in Iraq will never allow that to happen.
That also raises the question about increased religious fundamentalism in the US. Ask yourself… why did the Pilgrims take a long boat ride to America?
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