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jfailing
Trad climber
A trailer park in the Sierras
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Wow, this is crazy. I climb at Fossil Falls frequently and I've never been hassled. The lower part of the falls, where Twilight of the Gods is, is definitely BLM. I was climbing there one time and two BLM rangers came and told me I had to leave because they were closing the area to re-gravel the road. Further down the canyon seems to be where this property line issue is though... I've never actually been much farther down, just to do some bouldering, but indeed there is nothing indicating that it might be private property.
Regarding the gun issue - I ALWAYS hear gunfire when I climb there (usually alone), and sometimes it sounds pretty damn close to where I'm climbing - close enough to kinda freak me out. I make sure to sing really loud and whistle and make plenty of noise, just so hopefully they know I'm there.
I was under the impression that the duck hunting club didn't actually own Little Lake any more? Am I wrong?
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 3, 2010 - 03:10am PT
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Well we should all sit and wait right now until we see what The Chief has come up with...perhaps what he finds and what Mr Ivy says jive with each other, perhaps I met the bad apple careless taker, perhaps the BLM is wrong, perhaps the BLM is right - right now we just don't know.
The only thing I know is that there were no signs, and in NO way did it appear their had been any signs recently. I've seen plenty of sign posts missing signs all over the place and this was nothing like that. We'll see what comes of this.
Funny thing is I have no vested interest in. I climb in the valley and shuteye mostly - this was a random WTF lets try this place day (I was quite happy at rock two the day before). I just felt the tooling was so very screwed up I decide to try and see if there was anything that could happen from it and well thanks to the Chief and others at least something is happening...
kev
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 3, 2010 - 03:31am PT
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BlowCocks,
Go find a job, get a life, go climb, go do something other than spray!
kev
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quartziteflight
climber
Who knows?
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Kev,
Western ranchers lie all the time about owning public land.
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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Glad I could be a help, too bad the data wasn't a bit more current/complete though...at least it's a starting point along with the great efforts through The Chief...hopefully this gets straighten out for the best. Let me know if I can do anything else to help
Tom
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TKingsbury
Trad climber
MT
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No worries BJ!
It will be interesting to see the survey....cool that you're posting it here The Chief.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 3, 2010 - 01:18pm PT
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Chief and TK,
Thanks for all the help on this. I wouldn't have done it without the assistance.
Also TK, sorry I called you PK. Funny how small the world is - I think my partner that day knows you.
kev
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Thanks Chief for looking into this issue.
Locals like you and the China Lake SAR are a great example of climbers working constructively with land managers.
Who & when was this land sold by?
I wonder if you have any more info on the injury lawsuit. Maybe we should band together with all sorts of other recreational users to fight this particular problem. California like most states has a recreation use statute that is supposed to protect land owners who allow use, but they can still have large legal fees defending themselves. The more we can win any such lawsuits, the less likely others will be to attempt to sue.
Some examples besides the AF might be Sierra Club, IMBA, Surfrider, ORBA, NRA, Outdoor Retailer Industry, etc.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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According to Mr. Ivy, the area south of the area 5&2 on the Overview Map, pg.137, is his. The PP line is the face separating the Upper and Lower Falls. As I remember it, not as good as the areas in question.
People have been climbing regularly in the lower area (designated as sections 1 & 6 in the Vernon guide) for more than 20 years. The best routes at Fossil Falls are there. Twilight of The Gods and Ride of The Valkyries and several other good trad leads are in this area. T of The G's is one of the better hard 5.10 cracks in the Ridgecrest area, and frequently draws a crowd on cool winter weekends.
I believe that the Scott's Bluff crag could be on private land, but the main features of Fossil Falls are on public land. In the past I have seen "No Trespassing" signs south of the areas referred to as "The Junkyard and "Lawyer Free Zone" on pg 136. Apparently these signs come and go. Now all of a sudden this guys property line jumps north several hundred yards right up into the middle of the falls?
I will be very interested to see proof of this. Chief, if you have any problem getting access to the survey records let me know privately. I have time to spend on this if you don't...
Dr. Robert Yoho leading Ride of The Valkyries (5.10c) Fossil Falls lower area:
Edit: The exact location of the property line within plus or minus a few feet could determine access to these nice climbs...
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Slater
Trad climber
Central Coast
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Guys, stay focused and keep us in the loop! Keep posting as you find out solid info. Maybe let it quiet down a bit until you find some concrete info. I appreciate it!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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What really sucks here is that any part of this area was sold off to a private party.
More likely, it was the other way around; piecemeal acquisition of private land. This has been a recurring problem throughout the west. I commend The Chief for his efforts. This is the only safe approach. And yes, the most recent recorded survey controls.
Incidentally, the potential landowner liability is very real. Assumption of the risk is essentially dead in California since the Nga Li decision some 40+ years ago. A trespasser in California is anyone on private land without the owner's permission. A trespasser may sue the landowner for injuries, and the potential for even non-climbing injuries seems rather great if the private land is used for hunting.
For these reasons, this sounds like a situation the BLM needs to clarify ASAP. I'm sorry for your misfortune, kev, and I hope this gets resolved to climbers' satisfaction.
John
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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"People have been climbing regularly in the lower area (designated as sections 1 & 6 in the Vernon guide) for more than 20 years."
If that is the case, then there should be a prescriptive easement.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Yes, the guidebook was published 18 years ago, and climbing was well established at Fossil Falls long before then.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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I just found an old proposed management plan for Fossil Falls from the Bakersfield BLM office, 1976.
On page 54 of this document the author recommends that BLM aquire the 80 acre parcel south of the falls and states that the then owner was amenable to a deal. I wonder what happenned...
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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jeleazarian,
Is there substantial case history in California to show that Nga Li applies to cases of recreational use of completely undeveloped land?
Which would mean that California civil code, section 846 is practically useless.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Splater,
The problem comes form the penultimate paragraph. Even though the owner has no duty of care to a recreational user as such, look at the trespassing cases regarding, e.g., failure to warn. Suppose a climber, with the landowner's permission, was climbing on land being used for hunting. Suppose further that the climber was unaware of the hunting use, and was injured when hit by a stray bullet. If he sued the landowner for failing to warn of the danger from hunters, do you think a demurrer would lie under Section 846? I rather doubt it. This then leads us to issues of comparative negligence, and the Nga Li world.
John
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gonamok
Trad climber
Bite my azz
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I camped overnight alone at fossil falls years ago, and that place is eerie. Creepy vibes, noises in the night...i didnt sleep at all. I had to go out and look around several times because of this weird feeling of impending SOMETHING. Even my 12ga pump didnt make me feel that safe.
Sunrise banished the spirits and i had a great time climbing rock that feels like polished iron. Amazing place.
I just read this entire thread, and have to say Rokjox give it up u ass. It doesnt matter if you are 100% correct (which i doubt), you are still a pompous ass who must have the last word every time. You are a sanctimonious and condescending know it all, and you are embarassing yourself. Talk about annoying.
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jfailing
Trad climber
A trailer park in the Sierras
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gonamok: that's hilarious! I had the same spooky-like experience one time - tried climbing there (alone) after work one day. I had my headlamp going and was walking down the trail in the dark, amid a few small whispers of wind and rustling of bushes, it was dead quiet. After making it to the falls, I was apprehensively looking down into that dark, black maw of basalt when some crows started moving around and making weird noises on the other end of the canyon. All I could really see was this mass of dark moving things. That, in addition to mental images of some zombie movie the nigh before prompted me to get the hell out of there...
More on topic: Fossil Falls attracts hordes of tourists - some that I've seen venture pretty far down the falls. It's interesting to imagine if they would get the same reception as our climbing friends, had they trespassed...
Climbing-wise, Fossil Falls is pretty fun! Lots of steep routes, some splitter cracks and unique pockety face climbing. Many climbs would be more classic if their second half wasn't a munge-fest (or filled with bird and mouse sh*t), but for what it is, the falls are awesome.
Twilight of the Gods - hard!!
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Alois
Trad climber
Idyllwild, California
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Chief, Kris and all, would anyone have the APN (Assessor Parcel Number) of the lot (or any of the properties in close vicinity)? If I could get that number, or any APN near-by,I could find out just about anything about all the parcels in the area. It is all matter of public record.
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