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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Apr 28, 2010 - 03:02pm PT
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Coz,
before this gets out of control, and I have Walleye get you in a headlock,
be assured that my comments about dishonesty were not specific to you,
but in the general tone of this thread and some of the misinformation that
has been presented here.
I declare a truce,
Doug
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 28, 2010 - 03:04pm PT
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Peter
Flanders is Doug Nidever based in June lake.
Here's the link to the web site:
http://www.hireamountainguide.com/guide-directory/doug-nidever
Croft -- " ...after years of guiding in Josh, I was banned from doing so in the future - unless I paid the AMGA a hundred bucks."
And this is a clear example of the mafioso tactics by the AMGA I originally brought up.
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karsten delap
climber
IN
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Apr 28, 2010 - 03:25pm PT
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Just found this forum as I get back to the East coast. Kinda funny as I was just working in the Eastern Sierra. I got this job (out west) from an friend that I met in an AMGA course. The first thing the employer of this friend asked for was my AMGA certification. So I would have to say that the AMGA is worth it. But of course to make it monetarily you will need to be business savvy as well. The only reason I am back east is because I have work here that I do because of my AMGA credentials as well.
I have spent a lot of money to become a guide, but I saw the price tag getting into it. I assume all professionals look at costs and benefits before pursuing a profession.
Now lets get something straight about the AMGA. It is the "MINIMUM" standard. Once you have this certification you then begin the process of gaining experience. All experience up to this point is "climbing" experience. Which of course one should have before they start taking others out into the terrain that they are instructing or guiding (which is why the AMGA requires this).
About the SPI program. It is the only program that has been approved by the UIAA. This means that an AMGA SPI instructor can work for companies in places like Europe and New Zealand in their terrain guidelines legally.
As far as teaching ability is concerned in the AMGA SPI program. Well we are not going to kid anyone; we can't teach you how to teach in 3 days. Most college programs take 2 to 4 years of time to do this. We do hit on a few topics but try to make sure the students understand there are better ways to teach; and in order to hit many different learning styles you will have to perfect your craft outside of the curriculum of the course. So many other subjects like client care, liability, technical systems, and risk management are just a few of the curriculum topics focused on.
The AMGA is always looking out for the financial well-being of guides and how to improve on this. I see this everyday that I participate in AMGA activities. For those of you who disagree with this I suggest that you get more involved with the AMGA and speak your opinion. The conference has open round tables where the board listens to the guiding community at large and makes changes to best suit it.
The AMGA did have rough beginnings but has out grown this and the level of professionalism that is shown by members today is outstanding and dictates where this organization is headed.
So I guess in response to the subject heading: I've dunnit! and still doin it!
Thanks to all my mentors out there as many of you work in the Sierra and will read this post!
Cheers,
Karsten Delap
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Apr 28, 2010 - 03:42pm PT
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Yes Coz,
A truce from the unnecessary tension. And yes, from my "attacks". Your opinion is an
invaluable component to this guy's original question here, and the subsequent dialogue
helps the on lookers to make up their own minds on this issue.
yes, truce
Doug
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Apr 28, 2010 - 03:54pm PT
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I spoke about guides having a better life and my attempt to help them.
You also made unsubstantiated claims against others and then got made when asked for more information, like evidence or even just clarity about the situation and what happened.
Someone asking for more details in order to better understand the situation in not really calling you a liar. One kid says the sky is blue and the other says it's red. I ask both for proof, not because I think one is a liar but because I need to understand that one of them is watching the sunset and the other is not.
You guys are all a bunch of babies. Waaaaaa.
Dave
Edit to add: At least Flanders tried to end the argument. Gotta give credit for walking away from a fight.
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Ryan Tetz
Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Apr 28, 2010 - 05:04pm PT
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I've done it. It has opened a lot of doors for me. The programs are very well done honestly. I've learned a lot personally as a climber and come leeps and bounds up from the day I started my first course in 2002 and passed the Rock Guide exam.
My course instructors have made recommendations and helped me get future jobs on 3 occasions now. Go for it if you are interested and can!
I enjoyed practicing the new technical skills hands on. Things that were challenging in the past like rope management with novice clients on a hanging stance go very smoothly!
The exam gave me a tangible professional goal to work towards; I honed my confidence big wall speed climbing in Yosemite the last season ;-)
If nothing else it will better serve to solidify you as a confident, safe, and efficient guide. The certificate gives you something to vouch for this with a prospective employer (and a little extra wage $). I haven't had a course mate that felt they hadn't learned a lot during the program (and some of my course mates were very accomplished climbers like Steve Schneider or Mikey Schafer). I guarantee this will open doors for anyone who is serious about a guiding career.
On that subject.. Does anyone think guiding is actually about the money? It's certainly a lifestyle! Friends, travels, and adventure without confines of the 4 by 4 cubicle! It's too bad we don't make the $500 a day of our European counterparts and sad to see friends undercutting each other agreed. I think everyone supports better wages. I'm also sorry if you came by to get rich!
The courses and testing do cost a bit. The money is reasonable for the time. Also if you consider most courses are run by 20+ year career IFMGA (or their equivalency) guides; these instructors make better money with clients back home and get no tips hehe.. It's also not uncommon to get $ assistance from a guide service in exchange for staying on 2 or 3 seasons. I got my first course half paid for and my exam supplemented $400. You should actually even soon be able to apply a school loan to a course with the recent college credit changes.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 28, 2010 - 05:51pm PT
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Can someone define what a profession is, how it should be organized and for what purpose(s)? That may be the root of the question here. Certificates may be part of being a professional, but there's quite a bit more to the question than that. And protecting the economic interests of a self-defined group does not in and of itself create a profession, although it might create something like a union.
ps Welcome to the campfire, Peter! Even if your first post to SuperTopo is on this thread. You'll find lots of old friends posting and lurking here, and a great time-waster.
Anders
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AKDOG
Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
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Apr 28, 2010 - 08:00pm PT
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“Can someone define what a profession is, how it should be organized and for what purpose(s)?”
A profession is created to define standards and eventually lock out competition. You can find this business model in everything from medical doctors, financial consultants to massage therapist. If successful anyone providing the service will have to pay dues and be a member. In the long run it can be very lucrative for its members. If the AMGA is like some professional organizations, the ultimate goal would be to lobby for laws that no one would be allowed to guide in the mountains without an AMGA certificate and eventually no one be allowed to climb without a guide.
Waiting in line for the first car on the Téléphérique de l'Aiguille du Midi can give a glimpse of what the future may be like.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 28, 2010 - 08:08pm PT
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AMGA
Pulled their post and ran.
WTF is up with that?????
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 28, 2010 - 08:15pm PT
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Someone calling him/her self "AMGA" posted what appeared to be information about AMGA programs and certification. Quite a lot of information, which looked like a standard press release/backgrounder. Then it disappeared. Interesting.
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Apr 28, 2010 - 09:12pm PT
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Thanks Coz and Rick James (???????) for the support. No garbage can eating for me though...... Not since I put my time in on YOSAR..... I actually feel quite rich!!!!!!!!!!!! My life rules and I only have to work half the year!!!!!!!!!!! Currently en-route to the Fisher towers before landing in Devils tower for my summer employment. I have lots more to say on this forum but I need to compose my thoughts...... Will get back later.
Seth Zaharias
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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Apr 28, 2010 - 10:03pm PT
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"I have lots more to say on this forum but I need to compose my thoughts"
Oh if only we all could be in such control...
But, anyway, despite the back and forth between some folks I am finding the conversation quite interesting.
Howdy by the way to the new folks that joined!
Glad to have you here. Don't get too close to the fire either or you'll get burned.
Cheers,
DD
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Apr 29, 2010 - 12:50pm PT
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"Doug is suggesting I am a liar and only backed off when Werner and Peter step up."
Hey,,,,I declared a truce, and really meant it !
Re: Werner, he always has thought provoking comments, but he may be
inhaling to much incense.
Re: Peter, great guy, might have choked down to much chalk dusk.
Anyway, both these guys are stand up fellows who I like, and admire, but
clearly we pursue divergent approaches to education & certs.
Doug
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slobmonster
Trad climber
OAK (nee NH)
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Apr 29, 2010 - 04:28pm PT
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My only point was to charge more and quit under-cutting, stick together, and cut out the Mafia.
Coz, I commend/respect/covet your being in a position to do this (i.e. charge more and stick together), but you must be able to recognize that the larger American guiding community does not serve the same clientele.
The original poster was looking for advice, starting at the bottom of the hierarchy. And in my experience, the clientele/students he/she will likely be teaching and guiding are going to be:
1) kid's groups
2) Church groups
3) other groups
4) middle aged dudes
5) motivated neophyte climbers who want to learn more
6) adrenaline pursuers
It should be noted that the vitriol you're tossing around is terribly unappealing. Even if you were right the defensiveness and its imbalance with assertiveness does not speak to professionalism, be it AMGA's version or your own or anyone else's.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 29, 2010 - 04:41pm PT
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God only knows how anyone managed to climb before guide organizations. I've always considered the entire notion an anti-Darwinist influence on climbing in general and as such basically works against the natural order of things. But then, everyone has to make a buck doing something.
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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Apr 29, 2010 - 05:40pm PT
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Dang Doug, you even got croft to make his first Taco post!
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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Apr 29, 2010 - 05:41pm PT
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At least it's climbing related.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Apr 29, 2010 - 06:24pm PT
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I have paid for partners.
I had the pleasure of procuring Scott's services which he donated to the Access Fund. So he isn't entirely a mercenary SOB. He was one of the best - not just because he was at the top of his game as a climber or a great technician, but because of his client handling skills. I have also paid a celebrity climber and would never climb with him again because the client care skills were absent. I would pay a premium for Scott, and I wouldn't climb with the other for free.
I belong to the AMGA and I have some beefs with the AMGA. We are at a turning point in the business in the US. Wehther it is emerging from skittish land owners, or money minded agencies, the AMGA seems to be making inroads with the mantra that certified guides should have access. So their brand becomes the standard, and their small instructor pool remains busy. While the AMGA professes to serve guides and improve the standard, the practical reality is that the courses are long, expensive, offered at a limited number of venues, etc. The long run strategy may push up wages as they drive independent guides out of venues when land managers drink the koolaid and requires their certification. I think it is completely anti-competitive. This consumer wants to pick who gets the money. Those independent guides getting pushed out of venues - some of them are long time AMGA members watching their association leave them behind.
I took the SPI to keep my foot in the door. I love working with folks that are new to the sport, but you'll never find me in the gym or doing an institutional course. Going further may never happen due to the limited course offerings, long course times, and travel required. You can't really suitcase RIC anymore as they have raised the minimum number of people for that. It just isn't practical for someone with responsibilities to take the courses and exams. I guess that is another way of ensuring a shortage of people with the required piece of paper to operate at a venue.
Every year I sit down and reconsider maintaining my membership or dropping it. Damn, it is that time of the year again!!
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ryankelly
Trad climber
sonora
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 30, 2010 - 12:18am PT
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All of these posts have definitely given me information that would have been hard for me to discover anywhere else but here on SuperTopo.
Thanks for the thoughtful responses and the entertaining back-and-forth, hope no one was permanently offended.
See you out there!
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