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ryankelly
Trad climber
sonora
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 21, 2010 - 09:35pm PT
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Looking for some feedback about either of these courses and the whole process in general.
Thinking of taking the Rock Instructor course sometime this year.
Its a stack of money to get this process started...
Anyone out there want to share their thoughts or experiences?
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Apr 21, 2010 - 10:08pm PT
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If it's what used to be the Top Rope Management course, don't waste your time.
If you need that class to guide, you shouldn't be guiding.
All's that course is an expensive course of being "guided".
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 21, 2010 - 10:11pm PT
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AMGA is the mafia of the climbing world.
What a racket ....
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ryankelly
Trad climber
sonora
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 21, 2010 - 10:38pm PT
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Is there really a "market" for guiding folks on routes in the Sierra or do most people just have at it on their own?
I like teaching. I like climbing.
I want to do both.
But the cost does seem insane.
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reddirt
climber
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Apr 21, 2010 - 10:55pm PT
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was just climbing today w/ a friend who's taking the RI exam this June. He keeps postponing due to injury. He didn't do SPI.
Also there's the PCGI thing - separate organization geared towards people seeking guiding cert for grade III & below.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 21, 2010 - 11:09pm PT
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Politics and crime are the same thing .....
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Logdog
Trad climber
Sierra Nevada
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Apr 21, 2010 - 11:21pm PT
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I don't recommend taking any AMGA courses unless you already have a job with a guide service and know for sure that guiding is for you! The "rock guide" (not single pitch instructor) cert. is fairly involved, and very expensive. You must lead 5.10+ and be quick on big climbs. It also is one of the few ways to demand higher wages and more work. Some guide services (like YMS) won't hire you unless you are a certified rock guide. Some IFMGA/AMGA guides include Vince Anderson, Steve House, and local hardman Doug Nidever. Overall a rewarding process, just very expensive.
-Logan
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Roman
Trad climber
Bostonia
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Apr 21, 2010 - 11:32pm PT
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There are two requirements that must be met to make these certs worthwhile....
1) The ability to climb harder and prove more skills than you will ever need guiding a client.
2) A gym or (insert sponsor here) that will subsidize the cost.
Otherwise its all a $ game.
Don't ever forget you can always teach the willing for free and -possibly- win a belay partner and friend for life...
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ryankelly
Trad climber
sonora
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 22, 2010 - 12:05am PT
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It seems like super star climbers might only need the certs for legal reasons (maybe liability?)
Steve House is a Rock and Alpine Guide and a big name.
I was really asking more specifically about Rock Guides...(folks who are not featured in full page color ads in climbing print)
Is this a real way to earn a living (or even 1/2 a living coupled with another job or two)
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apogee
climber
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Apr 22, 2010 - 12:53am PT
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Man, did you ever choose the wrong group of people to ask that question.
Unless you're a troll, in which case this thread should hit 1000 by the end of the week. Weld_It?
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
Springdale UT
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Apr 22, 2010 - 01:05am PT
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I have taken both PCGI and AMGA courses and PCGI is a much better experience imho; they really help you after the courses in terms of hooking you up with potential employers and remaining open to help answer questions and act as a general resource.
Much more of a personal touch, and the courses are pretty reasonably priced too. You can PM me for more gory details...
Steve
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adam d
climber
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Apr 22, 2010 - 01:20am PT
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Like any kind of education, the instructor is one of the biggest factors. I had an employer cover my expenses to take the Rock Instructor course...10 days at Cathedral Ledge and Whitehorse back in 2005. 2 students total, 1 IFMGA guide. I wouldn't have done it if I were paying for it, but yes it was worthwhile. Since then, no one is paying my course/test bills and I haven't done any more with the AMGA.
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slobmonster
Trad climber
OAK (nee NH)
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Apr 22, 2010 - 02:04am PT
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Is this a real way to earn a living
No.
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tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
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Apr 22, 2010 - 09:11am PT
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What's the difference between a Certified Mountain Guide and a large pizza?
A large pizza can feed a family of four.
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That's Papajoto to you son!!!!!
Social climber
Oatmeal Arizona
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Apr 22, 2010 - 09:17am PT
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You can take the course and learn some 1:1 and 2:1 guiding techniques, but unless you already have a guiding job, it won't get your foot in the door. I suggest the SPI course and cert, than you'll be employable by a guide service.
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ryankelly
Trad climber
sonora
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 22, 2010 - 01:25pm PT
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Good food for thought.
I'm not exactly piling up the cash working in outdoor education as it is...
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j-tree
Trad climber
bay area, ca
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Apr 22, 2010 - 01:44pm PT
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Got the SPI Certification 2 years ago. Was an interesting course that offers a little in terms of creating organized lesson planning for dealing with larger groups of multi tiered abilities (something I already know how to do because of my single subject teaching credential) which was nice to think of those who have been certed being made aware of.
The rescue scenarios were basic but situations that I hadn't been exposed to at that time. I would say that a close reading of Luben's Self rescue book will give you similar instruction word for word without the outdoor practical.
I needed to get it for insurance reasons for the summer camp that I work at. The costs were covered in part my site but ended up (with travel expenses) coming in at around $1,500 or so (prob a bit more but I can't remember) I'll recert in a year, but if I didn't already have a job with my summer camp I doubt that I would. I'd def step up to the rock instructor if I was technically able to so I'm trying damn hard to improve my abilities, but probably not in the cards at this time (or in a year's time)
The SPI has been changed to something else now and I have no idea how that matches up or doesn't with what I went through.
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Branscomb
Trad climber
Lander, WY
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Apr 22, 2010 - 02:19pm PT
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I looked into it once...really expensive and I knew and had done way more than the snotty little geeks that were running it. I was trying to start up a little private guiding gig in Lander (being between boring ass lab jobs)and somehow they got wind of it. They basically told me that if I didn't get their precious little certification that I would be toast in the climbing world.
I think it's better to concentrate on building skills. When you're out there all the time, you connect with people and get a reputation. That's what gets you the cool guide jobs and not screwing around with a bunch of bureaucrats.
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apogee
climber
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Apr 22, 2010 - 02:20pm PT
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Ryan, I'm going to offer this with my usual naivete, and without complete confidence that the OP wasn't a troll with an ulterior motive. (Apologies for the overly-long post.)
You need to remember who the 'regulars' are in this Forum- many (most?) have been climbing for many decades, and have watched climbing develop from rogue pasttime to mainstream. Many of those oldtimers (and I'm close to that, for the record) are quite skilled and confident in their ability to climb and lead others. They can be very suspicious of newfangled practices or techniques, and don't see the need for them. Further, many of them see the relationship b/w professional guiding and climbing as an oxymoron, and they observed the development of the AMGA from the start. The early years of the AMGA were pretty uneven, and resulted in a fair amount of divisiveness: they presented themselves as the new 'standard', and many of the climbing peers of that era could not see why they had any right to do so. And, they still feel that way.
Personally, I can understand some of their feelings- the AMGA was pretty rough in the way that it came forward. I know for a fact that there are many, many highly experienced climbers that don't need a certification to guide clients safely, effectively, and enjoyably.
That said, outdoor education has changed extensively in the last 40 years- it's been my career for the last 25, in many roles including field instructor, program manager, certifying instructor, and program owner. The 'professionalism' of the outdoor education industry, specifically the discipline of climbing, has overall been a good thing: training and certification programs have provided a means of educational access to those who aspire to teach and lead, with many 'best practices' taught in an efficient manner. Perhaps most importantly, it has changed the way that newcomers see rock guiding: being a professional has responsibility, and standards of performance and behavior.
Certification programs are not perfect, and have pitfalls- as someone mentioned, the quality of the experience is largely dependent on the instructor, and certification decisions are extremely subjective (though those programs that have been around for a while work hard to reduce this subjectivity).
To your question as to sustainability, well, that's a whole 'nother quandry. While one of the goals of the professionalism trend has been to make guiding a sustainable lifestyle, to my eye, we are still very far from that. The realities of what the market will bear (that is to say, what clients are willing to pay) simply does not translate into a wage that will sustain an individual, a family, a home, and a future. (Not to mention that it deteriorates one's body not unlike hard construction work.) The 'typical' rock guide is early 20's to early 40's, single, male, and usually doesn't own a home. Many or most of those who choose the outdoor education field in their 20's will obtain some of the higher degrees or certifications, only to come to realize that it just isn't going to build the future that they would like, and then leave the field altogether.
Of course, this is a great generalization, and there are plenty of exceptions to this- I can name a number of close personal friends/colleagues off the top of my head. Regardless of whether you become a 'lifer' in the field of outdoor education, you are sure to find an experience that is unique and powerful, and the lessons you learn there will serve you well no matter what path you choose later in life. Best of luck to you, in any case.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 22, 2010 - 03:26pm PT
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apogee
I understand what you're saying.
But having to spend thousands of dollars to pay for these fuking certifications just so can be able to even start working is the problem.
It's an outrage run by the mafia.
All the guys I know never had to take/pay for these certifications because they got grandfathered in.
So that in itself is bullshit and mafioso style business.
It's totally unprofessional.
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