Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Mar 13, 2012 - 05:52pm PT
|
I've done some of the comfortized routes, such as Diedre, Calculus Crack, the Ultimate Everything, the indirect finish to Squamish Buttress, and Forked Flume/Skywalk, and am a little uncomfortable with their ethos. Convenience climbing seems an oxymoron to me. Although, as Glenn says, I'm not entirely innocent in that department.
There is a place at Squamish for bolt belays where decent natural anchors aren't available, or where a route is frequently used for rappelling. Placing them for the convenience of climbers who'd otherwise be unable to do a route, or of commercial climbers, may be another matter.
The unnecessary bolt belays on Diedre have led to some major fusterclucks - they in effect lure the unprepared onto the route. (And its simple nature, of course.)
At the same time, some of the routes that have been excavated over the last few years may soon regreen, unless there's a fair amount of traffic. That may happen to Crap Crags/Europa and maybe Skywalk in any case. So if bolt stations on such climbs, however unnecessary, encourage traffic, maybe that's a plus.
As for Slab Alley, I'm still unsure. Originally it had nine bolts. By the mid-1970s it had eleven - two were added to protect the traverse on the second pitch, so that pins weren't needed - although many still used a pin above the first stepup move on that pitch. Once I was done, and after considerable discussion, I'd added six belay bolts and four climbing bolts to the original line, plus rerouted the third pitch. (One of the new climbing bolts is where people used to use a pin. The three at the 'new' bolt ladder could probably be two, except that Big Jim insisted there be three.) Two of the three new belays don't have much in the way of natural anchors, although one does - a crack but not much of a stance. My helper that day was definite that it needed bolts. But then I got crap from some for not adding a bolt station at the end of the fourth pitch, where there are good natural anchors. And I agree that maybe I should have left the direct last pitch - originally climbed unprotected in the 1960s - alone, although I added three bolts there. The idea was to keep people out of the traffic jam at the end of Banana Peel.
Whatever else, I patched all the holes and messes left from 50 years of bolt placement and replacement, and overdrilled all the holes, so that it's not hard to sink and then patch over those that prove unneeded. If someone wants to argue that a few bolts could be removed (the station at the end of the second pitch, one of the three on the bolt 'ladder', and one or two on the direct finish), I might agree.
I went on to clean up Pineapple Peel, but only replaced bolts. The only added one is on a new half-pitch linking PP back into Slab Alley, to keep people away from the traffic jam on Banana Peel. Same for the upper Apron - cleaned, checked, replaced, but made no change.
The following may illustrate the discussion, although I make no claims to artistic ability. Maybe Tami could help improve it?
|
|
c-plus
Trad climber
Vancouver, BC, Canada
|
|
|
Mar 13, 2012 - 05:53pm PT
|
Bran Flakes! tee hee, I remember climbing that one several years ago and nearly losing my lunch! i think i was getting close to that first (and only) bolt, and finally starting to feel the runnout, when I noticed that since the route doesn't receive that much travel, it'd gotten a little dirty and developed some slick mossy bits. suddenly my fancy rubber shoes didn't feel so sticky! at that point i think my belayer un-anchored himself from the trees below and prepared to start running downhill should i start to peel off. thankfully I made it up unscathed, but boy was the heartrate up.
regarding anchors near cracks, this debate comes up every couple years. but think about it: diedre has anchors right next to a beautiful crack for most of the pitches. why are they there? i mean, you could build a gear anchor anywhere you wanted? what about the trees that used to be in those cracks? they probably provided fine natural pro? safety, convenience, possibility of retreat, etc... all these things conspire to place bolts on the rock. in the end it's a judgement call and the debate continues...
edit: bah, anders beat me to the diedre comparison!!
|
|
hamish f
Social climber
squamish
|
|
|
Mar 13, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
|
Really? Bolts beside cracks to fascilitate guiding? Are you kidding me?
Where did it all go wrong?
|
|
thekidcormier
Trad climber
squamish, b.c.
|
|
|
Mar 13, 2012 - 06:34pm PT
|
It seems the the apex of the slippery slope I referred to was quite a while back and this convenience anchor/bolting style is gaining momentum...
Where does it stop? what will climbing at squamish be like in 20 years if route development is geared towards 'beginner' trad climbers?
Sound we put an end to it by chopping ALL convenience bolts?
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
|
Mar 13, 2012 - 06:50pm PT
|
Sound we put an end to it by chopping ALL convenience bolts?
You might want to put some thought into exactly what is "a convenience bolt" and what isn't. You gonna go up and chop all the bolts on Perry's Lieback?
I guess what I'm trying to ask is: Who gets to decide?
|
|
thekidcormier
Trad climber
squamish, b.c.
|
|
|
Mar 13, 2012 - 06:55pm PT
|
The main purpose of posting "should we chop all convenience bolts" is to provoke some conversation as to which direction climbing at squamish is heading..
EDIT; Has perrys ever been climbed on gear? do camalot #5s even fit?
|
|
Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
|
Thats it. Im gonna go chop one bolt from each belay on diedre, since the fa's only put one in the first place.
How long before someone goes and puts new ones in!
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Mar 13, 2012 - 07:17pm PT
|
That'd be deja vu, all over again.
No bolts were placed on the first ascent of Diedre, by Jim Baldwin and Jim Sinclair in 1962. (There were more shrubs in the route then, some of which were good belays.) One bolt/belay was added in about 1973, to discourage piton use - the idea was that with nuts plus one bolt, you could easily make a good belay. Those bolts were removed fairly soon after, because they were 'unnecessary'.
The modern stations appeared somewhat later - I'm not clear as to when/who.
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
|
Mar 13, 2012 - 07:40pm PT
|
The modern stations appeared somewhat later - I'm not clear as to when/who.
I heard a story once, not sure if it's 100% true or not, but if it isn't, it sure ought to be. Goes like this...
Squamish local Paul Kindree is soloing Diedre one afternoon, and finds a pair of climbers at the first belay, anchored to the bush that grew there. He points to the recently installed two-bolt station and suggests that the pair might not have seen it. To which they respond haughtily with words to the effect of "There's a perfectly good natural belay here, and whoever put the bolts in should be ashamed." At which point Paul easily pulls the bush out and throws it down the slab.
Leaving the noobs with a new understanding of what might justify "unnecessary" bolts.
|
|
thekidcormier
Trad climber
squamish, b.c.
|
|
|
Mar 13, 2012 - 07:44pm PT
|
Well I heard a story once too..
it involved mr kindree unroped and sliding down the shallow corner of diedre, probably thinking "I've made a terrible mistake".
Saved only by a pair of adidas tobaco's and I sh#t you not a BUSH!
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
|
Mar 13, 2012 - 07:47pm PT
|
Yeah, but that was a good bush.
|
|
hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
|
|
|
Mar 13, 2012 - 07:52pm PT
|
As Anders has alluded, Europa is not a new route, merely a new name. It is the clear-cut/clean-cut version of Crap Crags. Hopefully, after all of the work put in by Jeff and his many friends, the climb will be done often enough to stay clean.
Has anyone here done Europa/CC since it was cleaned/logged? Opinions and comments based on recent hands-on experience only, please.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Mar 13, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
|
IIRC, Paul had his little slide down Sickle.
Hopefully scrubber will chime in with a different side of this. He's put a lot of work into his creations, some of which are quite popular.
|
|
TheSoloClimber
Trad climber
Vancouver
|
|
|
Mar 13, 2012 - 07:56pm PT
|
I'm down with the one bolt belays on Diedre. It gets stacked at the strangest times (like when it's soaking wet) but then other days, it's blank. I went up at half past noon on a Saturday back in August or September, and there was no one on it at all. Took advantage of that!
Maybe cleaning up the belays will keep the route a bit cleaner as a whole, but then again, maybe not.
Anders, I climbed Slab Alley back around late June I think, and I don't recall it being overly bolted. Then again, I was still fairly new to both climbing and slab routes, and I remember being quite thankful for the three bolts at the crux there. It seems fairly moderately bolted for a slab route; not so much to make it a cakewalk, but enough to allow it to still see traffic when the masses decide that BP Diedre and Calculus have been done enough.
Edit: Actually, do you really think that if there were only one bolt belays on Diedre, that people would actually plug in some gear for their anchor and not just belay off the single bolt?
|
|
Tricouni
Mountain climber
Vancouver
|
|
|
Mar 13, 2012 - 08:18pm PT
|
I've not done Europa/CC, but the original Culbert-Mutch Crap Crags was actually not a bad route. Interesting, and enjoyable. I think Dick or Hamie actually led a VOC party up it once.
|
|
Fish Boy
Trad climber
Vancouver
|
|
|
Mar 13, 2012 - 08:20pm PT
|
^ Why wouldn't they utilise the crack for gear Solo? You saying you wouldn't?
To have a good perspective on bolting, have a look at other crags around the world and see what the practices are. Squamish sits somewhere in the middle when it comes what seems reasonable for lead bolts.
The abundance of drilled anchors is excessive IME and the spacing of anchors also seems rather close. 50m/60m spacing of rap anchors is common, however not in the few places I've climbed around Nth America.
What's up with the amazing amount of rap anchors on top of single pitch routes too around the Bluffs? Surely they are more prolific than in the past, and it certainly isn't necessary for each route to have it's own set which seems common.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Mar 13, 2012 - 08:27pm PT
|
TSC may be right - if there were only one bolt at each belay for Diedre, then some would simply clip to it, rather than add to it with gear as they ought.
As for the Little Smoke Bluffs, they're something of an urban crag, a park which we share with many others. If it seems a bit twee at times, it's because of that. The management committee - on which climbers are well represented - decided some time ago that most routes there should have bolt belay/rappel anchors at the top, with a few exceptions. Nothing new - many routes there had arguably unnecessary bolts added at their tops in the later 1980s and early 1990s.
IMHO, there does need to be a more open debate at Squamish about bolting practices and climbers' values.
ps Crap Crags was a classic Squamish adventure climb!
|
|
thekidcormier
Trad climber
squamish, b.c.
|
|
|
Mar 13, 2012 - 08:49pm PT
|
Perhaps a Squamish Inquisition meeting is in order at the brew pub in the weeks to come to discuss bolting practices..
Its seems Illogical to me to equip routes with bolted anchors beside natural pro. Its disrespectful to the pioneers who TOOK PRIDE in the ethics and style. Its is also disrespectful to the term TRAD climbing;
Traditional by definition is Existing in or as part of a tradition; long-established..
|
|
Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2012 - 08:58pm PT
|
If Team Jim saw fit to do Diedre without bolts for anchors, then I guess the rest of us could too. I'll ask Big Jim what he thinks.
Only anchor that might be interesting is the second one. But I guess you could get a decent one in below the bulge. Probably not the best belay, but a natural one.
|
|
Fish Boy
Trad climber
Vancouver
|
|
|
Mar 13, 2012 - 08:59pm PT
|
...and the definition of "trad" climbing is ground up, regardless of protection type...
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!