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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Aug 27, 2010 - 07:15pm PT
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bluering,
So debris hit the building. The question is, was the building an occupied structure that, as a result of the attack, has been abandoned. If not, then the building isn't "ground zero".
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 27, 2010 - 07:20pm PT
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Gunsmoke it was unoccupied. By I disagree with your conclusion. Just because nobody was there???
The modern definition of terrorist is anyone who uses or threatens violence against anyone else to try to make them change so I don't see how that definition is inappropriate. Also, coming from a guy who thinks that modern American "progressives" are just "communists" by another name has any business arguing labels.
The definition the Imam was quoted as saying was 'the targeting of innocents to advance a political agenda'.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Aug 27, 2010 - 07:32pm PT
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Terrorists use tactics that intentionally kill innocent people. We use tactics that aren't intended to kill innocent people but always wind up doing it anyway. Sounds like the primary difference is, to use bluering parlance, "feel good crap." I'm pretty sure if you asked any of the thousands of family members in Iraq or Afghanistan if it mattered to them that we tried really REALLY hard not to kill our umpteen-thousandth "collateral" casualty that wound up being their son/daughter/mom/dad they wouldn't really see the distinction you're trying to make very clearly.
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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Aug 27, 2010 - 07:33pm PT
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Evidently there is a history of mosques being built atop sites that were conquered or otherwise destroyed in the name is Islam. Given that the Twin Towers were attacked and destroyed in the name of Islam, I think it is only reasonable, as a member of the 'conquered', to have a problem with watching those who act in the name of Islam build a mosque on the site where the Twin Towers stood. If the site they wish to build on was not occupied at the time of the attack and was not destroyed or made unoccupiable as a result of the attack, then the case against the mosque is greatly weakened. I will grant, though, that the close proximity to ground zero and the original proposed name makes it appear that this site was selected to make a point against Western Civilization.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Aug 27, 2010 - 07:36pm PT
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gunsmoke: Do they have a history of building cultural outreach centers near sites of violence committed in the name of Islam to help show people that what happened near there was not in the name of all Muslims and that they aren't really about that kind of thing? (it isn't a Mosque and there is already a Mosque 4 blocks in the other direction)
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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Aug 27, 2010 - 07:46pm PT
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HighDesert,
If it was being built at Ground Zero, then I've clearly got a problem with it. If it's not a Ground Zero, then I need to know more than I do to have an educated opinion. So not only is it not at Ground Zero (which seems to be the case), now you say it's not a mosque. And there is already a nearby building that is a mosque just a few feet the other direction. And the original proposed name (Cordoba) may have an innocent explanation. My view is still forming. All I've asserted so far is that I have a problem with those who profess Islam building a mosque at Ground Zero. From what I can tell, the proposed site isn't what I would consider Ground Zero, although I do see that a case for such could be made.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 27, 2010 - 07:48pm PT
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Do they have a history of building cultural outreach centers near sites of violence committed in the name of Islam to help show people that what happened near there was not in the name of all Muslims and that they aren't really about that kind of thing? (it isn't a Mosque and there is already a Mosque 4 blocks in the other direction)
You're wrong HDDJ. There are nefarious intentions behind this.
Did you know that Bloomberg is trying to get his media outlets into the Arabian peninsula? The Saudis are behind this and that Imam is sketchy.
Gunsmoke, the other mosque is 4 blocks away from 'ground zero'...Why do they need another 2 blocks away?
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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Aug 27, 2010 - 07:57pm PT
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the other mosque is 4 blocks away from 'ground zero'...Why do they need another 2 blocks away? That does seems strange. Those who are building it certainly know the history of their religion. To build there and think to use the name "Cordoba" without a realization of the implications is a little hard for me to believe.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Aug 27, 2010 - 07:58pm PT
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You're wrong HDDJ. There are nefarious intentions behind this.
Find that birth certificate yet?
Gunsmoke, the other mosque is 4 blocks away from 'ground zero'...Why do they need another 2 blocks away?
Uh. Cause this one isn't a mosque?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 27, 2010 - 08:01pm PT
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That does seems strange. Those who are building it certainly know the history of their religion. To build there and think to use the name "Cordoba" without a realization of the implications is a little hard for me to believe.
I would agree. And let me reiterate my stance since you just got here. They have every right to build it there, but it is in bad taste since so many people are against it publicly.
Especially since they are calling it a 'cultural center to bring peoples together'. What a load of crap on so many levels.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Aug 27, 2010 - 08:03pm PT
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You're right. They should build it somewhere where they are welcome. Like in Minnesota where there are already a lot of Muslims as opposed to somewhere that they might actually have an impact at destigmatizing the obvious prejudices that exist about them. Infallible logic I say!
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Aug 27, 2010 - 08:06pm PT
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According to you it isn't a mosque at all but a terrorist training camp.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 27, 2010 - 08:08pm PT
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According to you it isn't a mosque at all but a terrorist training camp.
I didn't say that. I just said the Imam smells like a rat. And apparently he is.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Aug 27, 2010 - 08:09pm PT
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You said it has NEFARIOUS INTENT. Ooooh. Obviously you meant that they intended to sell cigarettes to minors or something. Or perhaps teach grade schoolers how to cuss.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 27, 2010 - 08:14pm PT
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You said it has NEFARIOUS INTENT. Ooooh. Obviously you meant that they intended to sell cigarettes to minors or something. Or perhaps teach grade schoolers how to cuss.
No, just the spread and footholds of Islam. And not a nice version of Islam. The conquering type in the guise of peace. Did I tell you we're getting a 70 ft minaret in my home-town?
Why did the Swiss put a ban on minarets in Switzerland? They're racists and Islamophobes, or because they are going up everywhere?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 27, 2010 - 08:18pm PT
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The motivation is quite clear. "They're" just doing it to upset and divert bluering and his fellow travellers.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 27, 2010 - 08:29pm PT
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The motivation is quite clear. "They're" just doing it to upset and divert bluering and his fellow travellers.
You Canucks got your hands full too! I think you've prolly read the news there lately. (hint: Ottawa)
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Aug 27, 2010 - 08:30pm PT
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It would be informative if any Muslim taco-ites would comment on how they'd
feel about a Christian Church being built 2 blocks from the Kaaba (cube) in Mecca?
No problem right or should an EMT be summoned cause your having a stroke
just at the idea?
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