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MeatBomb
Gym climber
Boise, I dee Hoe
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Aug 27, 2010 - 01:37am PT
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zero chance of this being built. Save your breath.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Aug 27, 2010 - 02:03am PT
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I FIND IT AMAZING THAT BLUEY CAN PARROT WHAT HE GETS FROM RUSH AND FAUX WITH SUCH TENACITY!!!
do you ever consider that maybe, just maybe, the perspective of those you seem to look toward for either education or just news and information, might be slightly skewed? perhaps there is an agenda there? i mean, you don't walk the streets on NYC daily, right? so you get these ideas from SOMEWHERE, right?
...just sayin.
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Aug 27, 2010 - 02:21am PT
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Monkey see...monkey do
Sad that we haven't evolved past this simian condition.
We're supposed to be the hominid with the big brain, correct?
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Aug 27, 2010 - 04:33am PT
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"Did you read my earlier posts, dude??? F*#k, you people call me reactionary!"
Actually Blue, I have read everything you've written in this thread (and for the life of me I don't know why).
I was trying (obviously I failed based on your response) to acknowledge your ability to 'stick to yer'guns' and not be swayed. Not necessarily a bad thing...
however, my other point was that having a position and sticking to it is fine, but in a real (shall we call it) debate one also is willing to see the others point of view and then adjust (or not) their thinking and responses.
I do not see nor hear anyone except possibly radman doing this yourself included.
I'm not talking about changing minds but really listening (or in this case reading).
I will freely admit your seemingly bigoted type responses rub me the wrong way.
However, I do read them and try to understand the thinking behind them. I try to understand from your point of view.
I know you have written, 'you hold nothing against Muslims or Islam in general'. That you feel it is only a case of 'bad taste' in the eyes of those that want to go through it.
Where I get slowed down though is your consistent inconsistency (not to be redundant:-) when it comes to peoples of the world that are different than you.
If I was to guess I'd say your heart wants to be fair, empathetic, and compassionate, but your brain gets in the way.
This topic though for many (and you might be in that group) is really cut and dry.
Cheers,
DD
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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Tahoe City/Talmont , CA
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Aug 27, 2010 - 10:07am PT
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Its more like a contact sport... Internet Dodgeball,,,,
Being played, mostly, by a bunch of people wearing the internet version of Burquas,
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 27, 2010 - 10:53am PT
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Five myths about Mosques (as printed in the Washington Post this morning). Thought some of you may be interested.
Myth 1: Mosques are new to this country.
1. Mosques have been here since the colonial era. A mosque, or masjid, is literally any place where Muslims make salat, the prayer performed in the direction of Mecca; it needn't be a building. One of the first mosques in North American history was on Kent Island, Md.: Between 1731 and 1733, African American Muslim slave and Islamic scholar Job Ben Solomon, a cattle driver, would regularly steal away to the woods there for his prayers -- in spite of a white boy who threw dirt on him as he made his prostrations.
The Midwest was home to the greatest number of permanent U.S. mosques in the first half of the 20th century. In 1921, Sunni, Shiite and Ahmadi Muslims in Detroit celebrated the opening of perhaps the first purpose-built mosque in the nation. Funded by real estate developer Muhammad Karoub, it was just blocks away from Henry Ford's Highland Park automobile factory, which employed hundreds of Arab American men.
Most Midwestern mosques blended into their surroundings. The temples or mosques of the Nation of Islam -- an indigenous form of Islam led by Elijah Muhammad from 1934 to 1975 -- were converted storefronts and churches. In total, mosques numbered perhaps slightly more than 100 nationwide in 1970. In the last three decades of the 20th century, however, more than 1 million new Muslim immigrants came to the United States, and in tandem with their African American co-religionists opened hundreds more mosques. Today there are more than 2,000 places of Muslim prayer -- most of them mosques -- in the United States.
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According to recent Pew and Gallup polls, about 40 percent of Muslim Americans say they pray in a mosque at least once a week, nearly the same percentage of American Christians who attend church weekly. About a third of all U.S. Muslims say they seldom or never go to mosques. And contrary to stereotypes of mosques as male-only spaces, Gallup finds that women are as likely as men to attend.
Myth 2: Mosques try to spread sharia law in the United States.
2. In Islam, sharia ("the Way" to God) theoretically governs every human act. But Muslims do not agree on what sharia says; there is no one sharia book of laws. Most mosques in America do not teach Islamic law for a simple reason: It's too complicated for the average believer and even for some imams.
Islamic law includes not only the Koran and the Sunna (the traditions of the prophet Muhammad) but also great bodies of arcane legal rulings and pedantic scholarly interpretations. If mosques forced Islamic law upon their congregants, most Muslims would probably leave -- just as most Christians might walk out of the pews if preachers gave sermons exclusively on Saint Augustine, canon law and Greek grammar. Instead, mosques study the Koran and the Sunna and how the principles and stories in those sacred texts apply to their everyday lives.
Myth 3: Most people attending U.S. mosques are of Middle Eastern descent.
3. A 2009 Gallup poll found that African Americans accounted for 35 percent of all Muslim Americans, making them the largest racial-ethnic group of Muslims in the nation. It is unclear whether Arab Americans or South Asian Americans (mostly Pakistanis and Indians) are the second-largest. Muslim Americans are also white, Hispanic, Sub-Saharan African, Iranian, European, Central Asian and more -- representing the most racially diverse religious group in the United States.
Mosques reflect this diversity. Though there are hundreds of ethnically and racially integrated mosques, most of these institutions, like many American places of worship, break down along racial and ethnic lines. Arabs, for instance, are the dominant ethnic group in a modest number of mosques -- particularly in states such as Michigan and New York. And according to a 2001 survey (the most recent national survey on mosques available) by the Council on American-Islamic Relations, they represented the plurality in only 15 percent of U.S. mosques.
Myth 4: Mosques are funded by groups and governments unfriendly to the United States.
4. There certainly have been instances in which foreign funds, especially from Saudi Arabia and the Persian Gulf region, have been used to build mosques in the United States. The Saudi royal family, for example, reportedly gave $8 million for the building of the King Fahd Mosque, which was inaugurated in 1998 in Culver City, a Los Angeles suburb.
But the vast majority of mosques are supported by Muslim Americans themselves. Domestic funding reflects the desire of many U.S. Muslims to be independent of overseas influences. Long before Sept. 11, 2001, in the midst of a growing clash of interests between some Muslim-majority nations and the U.S. government -- during the Persian Gulf War, for instance -- Muslim American leaders decided that they must draw primarily from U.S. sources of funding for their projects.
Myth 5: Mosques lead to homegrown terrorism.
5. To the contrary, mosques have become typical American religious institutions: In addition to worship services, most U.S. mosques hold weekend classes for children, offer charity to the poor, provide counseling services and conduct interfaith programs.
No doubt, some mosques have encouraged radical extremism. Omar Abdel Rahman, the blind Egyptian sheik who inspired the World Trade Center's first attackers in 1993, operated out of the Al-Salam mosque in Jersey City, N.J. But after the 2001 attacks, such radicalism was largely pushed out of mosques and onto the Internet, largely because of a renewed commitment among mosque leaders to confront extremism.
There is a danger that as anti-Muslim prejudice increases -- as it has recently in reaction to the proposed community center near Ground Zero -- alienated young Muslims will turn away from the peaceful path advocated by their elders in America's mosques. So far, that has not happened on a large scale.
Through their mosques, U.S. Muslims are embracing the community involvement that is a hallmark of the American experience. In this light, mosques should be welcomed as premier sites of American assimilation, not feared as incubators of terrorist indoctrination.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Aug 27, 2010 - 01:39pm PT
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Very illuminating material, Crimpie.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Aug 27, 2010 - 02:23pm PT
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crimp-
i would like you to know that i appreciate your sound and reasonable contributions to this thread!
U-GO(crimper)GIRL
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Aug 27, 2010 - 02:28pm PT
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Man, that elephant had a big sh#t eating grin.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Aug 27, 2010 - 02:31pm PT
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Superb post Crimps.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Aug 27, 2010 - 04:26pm PT
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Crimpy, I fear you may lose your trademark perkiness if you continue to participate in these maddening political threads and I implore you stop!
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 27, 2010 - 05:13pm PT
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Heh heh . :)
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 27, 2010 - 05:23pm PT
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With (some of) our minds already made up, why confuse us with the facts? Fact-based argument - what an absurdity! That Crimpie, stirring things up. In our world of subjective ad hominem debate, we should now dogpile her, for her temerity. :-)
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 27, 2010 - 05:48pm PT
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Facts are stupid things. -- Ronnie Raygun
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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Aug 27, 2010 - 06:48pm PT
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I think your title is misleading. The mosque is not at Ground Zero. It is 600ft away.
I have read nothing but the first and last pages of this thread, so pardon me if I'm asking something that's already been covered (but based on the last few posts, I assume it hasn't). Question: was the building where the proposed mosque is to be built occupied on the morning of 9/11, evacuated when the planes hit, and never reoccupied? If the answer is "yes", then the title of this thread would seem to be accurate. In "no", then I'd agree that the thread is mistitled.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Aug 27, 2010 - 07:11pm PT
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So if I moved out of a house on September 11th and never moved back in that would be Ground Zero?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 27, 2010 - 07:12pm PT
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Gunsmoke, it was close enough to have a portion of landing gear from one of the planes smash into it...
That Imam considers "the West" and America terrorists too!
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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Aug 27, 2010 - 07:12pm PT
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So if I moved out of a house on September 11th and never moved back in that would be Ground Zero? If you moved out from being bombed it would.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Aug 27, 2010 - 07:14pm PT
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That Imam considers "the West" and America terrorists too!
The modern definition of terrorist is anyone who uses or threatens violence against anyone else to try to make them change so I don't see how that definition is inappropriate. Also, coming from a guy who thinks that modern American "progressives" are just "communists" by another name has any business arguing labels.
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