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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Either I don't agree with Largo or I do, I can't decide...
reality is quite different from what we perceive
however, spiritual experiences necessarily involve our perception, there's just no way around that, the experience itself is contained within a mind, someone experiences it, and then tries to explain that experience
spiritualism, mysticism, religion all have at their core the exploration of the human experience in the universe. It's all about being human. It's all about what happens within our consciousness, our subconciousness, our spiritual being, our soul... it is about the human experience.
Science isn't about the human experience, it's methodology and techniques move beyond the subjective experience of the universe and try to explore it on an objective level. Science isn't concerned about the human experience in the universe, human experience is irrelevant to the workings of the universe.
While this can be criticized as a "limited view" actually it is more expansive than the universe of human experience, though most of us humans would like an explanation of that experience, perhaps more than anything else.
One gets the sense of the strangeness of the universe by studying physics because so much of what we understand is beyond the direct experience of human sense and perception. Perhaps one can get themselves into a similarly strange state by practicing meditation, but to my mind that is just playing with our programming, sort of getting into the code and mucking around with it... perhaps similarly taking psychoactive drugs where the body chemistry is altered and what we perceives is different from what we sense if only for a short period of time.
I don't agree that physicists think that physics is the correct way to pattern human institutions, as madbolter1 mentions above... but I do agree with Dr. F that beliefs that something is real when that something is a human social construction can have bad outcomes among human societies, and within a society.
The mind is probably a complex phenomena, worthy of study on its own, where our experience has guided initial forays into explanations. I don't think it is beyond a material explanation, here I disagree with Largo, but I think I have the more optimistic view. Largo's appeal to quantum mechanics has no basis in science, at least for an object as large as a brain, at finite temperature. Those thermal interactions quickly destroy any of the quantum behavior such a thing would have. We cannot make a quantum computer out of a few bits last very long, let alone expanding a wave function over the universe for our minds to "tap into." I don't think it is a limitation of my imagination that I conclude this, it is just quantum mechanics... but you have to understand it to understand what I'm saying.
So much of what we are concerned with as humans is just being human, what does that mean? Certainly our consciousness seems to be unique. The reason that is probably has to do with the irrelevance of consciousness to survival... the vast expanse of life on our planet is not conscious in the way we are, yet that life exists as we do. If I were a betting man, I'd put my money on the bacteria for the best chance to survive into the future, conscious life may be a relatively short term experience on the planet.
Certainly the universe will go on with or without us... science teaches us that.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Ed, you should have been a teacher. Most of what you say (I think) I understand. It's late for lynne who's been working the fields today in the hot sun so I will add more manana but just want to say this.....
I know what I believe is not able to be proved, but for me the bottom line is this.
1) It has made a huge difference in my life. One I could not make up on my own. You know me Ed. Pretty much what you see is me. What I say I mean. I'm not a complicated person. God is real. I've never said this before cause it's very scary. But I would give my life for what I just said.
2) Jesus said this, " Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself." He said these were the most important things to live by. If every human did this our world would be changed. Even if people that don't believe in God just loved their neighbor as their self..... Wow.
If you read just what jesus said and forget the rest of the bible it's world changing. He loved, he cared for the underdogs. Even if you don't believe in his miracles....they were helping people. Jesus was all about caring and helping and healing and sharing hope.
There's so much more but I've got a big surf weekend ahead plus family get together stuff. Peace and Joy, lynne
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WBraun
climber
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"God by definition, can not be zero"
The nihilist and impersonal-ists think he's zero, cessation of all material activities.
The materialists are on the negative side and think he's ultimately like them.
The personal-ists are on the positive side and think he's ultimately a person from which all manifestations ultimately emanate.
Guess which one is the truth .....
Heh heh heh
betcha can't .....
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Ed wrote: "however, spiritual experiences necessarily involve our perception, there's just no way around that, the experience itself is contained within a mind, someone experiences it, and then tries to explain that experience"
That sound right, but believe it or not, one of the more profound and very universal experiences of eyes open meditation is the realization that awareness is hooked up with the "void" I mentioned earlier, and the void is not local, meaning it's not located in one spot (one brain) and it's "you" either. No possible way to prove that one either.
Also, I'm using quantum mechanics strictly as a metaphor because through direct experience, void, the spontaneous arising of thoughts and feeling and so forth, plus a bunch of other things suggest not that the brain is a giant quantum machine, but that nothing and something and, form and emptiness and insubstantiality are all part of Mind. But that's only the first layer. No-mind, or being, is the direct experience of the void itself, and that's the advanced course.
JL
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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it's funny, but the only one to agree with me about 9/11 is klimmer, and he seems to have disappeared. we can't agree about much else, and he didn't take up my invitation to climb fissure of men, 5.1, wall of biblical fallacies. i thought it would be good to start easy.
what ed said: "I do agree with Dr. F that beliefs that something is real when that something is a human social construction can have bad outcomes among human societies, and within a society."
a bit confusing, needs to be read slowly, but the point is we're getting bad outcomes from an 800-lb gorilla. the big kid on the block has become a bully, and praying to jesus about it hasn't worked from jesus day 1. i'm a live-and-let-live type when it comes to beliefs, but if your beliefs lead you to ignore what is important to all of us, it's time for me to get out my hammer and start pounding.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Ed, John...
I like what you two have to say about our (limited) understanding of the mind and conciousness.
Reminds me of a good book writen by Tenzin Gyatso (14th and current Dalai Lama):
The Universe in a Single Atom: The Convergence of Science and Spirituality
He spent some time with physicists and scientists, learning about current theories, and the result was this book.
In it, he has a chapter on conciousness, and he notes that it is hard to objectively quanitfy and even talk about it, since everybody experiences their own personally, thus subjectively... And when trying to talk about what they experience, people are limited by vocabulary, in that many cultures have different ideas and definitions for "heart" (not the blood pump type ;-P), "mind", "spirit", "soul", etc...
Tis a good read, from a well read and enlightened man.
That said... Many who find God 'lurking' in or evidenced by the things we don't fully understand have the "God Of The Gaps", in that he is only in the gaps in our knowledge...
"...a careful reading of older texts, particularly those concerned with the universe itself, shows that the authors invoke divinity only when they reach the boundaries of their understanding. They appeal to a higher power only when staring into the ocean of their own ignorance."
~Neil deGrasse Tyson
"The less one knows about the universe, the easier it is to explain."
~Leon Brunschvicg
God (supernatural explanations) used to get a lot more credit back when we understood less about the world around us, but as we come to understand more and more, we just don't need the supernatural explanations anymore, since we see perfectly natural ones that we understand enough to have practical uses. (I.e., Science works!)
Unfortunately, many cling to those age old supernatural explanations, and willfully ignore what we really do know about the world... That is a disconnect with reality.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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What can be,
Omniscient
Omnipresent
and
Omnipotent
Other than the Void?
(or Logos if you want to use John's term.)
(the other John)
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pa
climber
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A few questions for Mr. Hartouni, in the spirit of inquiry, not of contention.
1."What we perceive is different from what we sense".
How does that happen?
2."The mind is probably a complex phenomena".
Probably?
3."Certainly our consciousness seems to be unique. The reason that it is probably has to do with the irrelevance of consciousness to survival".
Could you explain that some more?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Oooooooo Lynne, I was hoping you weren't going to say that! That it "can't be proved", yikes!
Although, God said in his own words that science would not be able to prove things that exist in Hebrews 11:3, "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear," if someone asks us to prove the Bible to them we have to rely on circumstantial evidence which belies even some of the most regarded attorneys, historians and others. I don't have enough time to begin listing all of the resources, for there are countless papers written on the subject but here a just a few on the proof of Christ's resurrection:
1. The Bible, 1Cor:5-19
2. Gary Habermas' The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus, or:
3. E. M. Blaiklock Professor of Classics, Auckland University
"I claim to be an historian. My approach to Classics is historical. And I tell you that the evidence for the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ is better authenticated than most of the facts of ancient history" . . .
The lists go on and on. The Bible having been written over 1500 years and for the prophetical events over that time to come to pass 100% of the time is unfathomable. A good friend of mine, David Hall, (http://quiettimepoems.blogspot.com); in his earlier years as a statistical student wrote a term paper on seventeen of these very prophecies and his conclusion that these events happened by chance are: 1 chance in 4.8E+33.
Even though, as a young Christian myself, just a "babe", I will continue to arm myself with as much evidence as I can find in order to save "just one" from going to hell when they die. I'm not out to convert ANYONE but to just share what God has done for me in hopes that someone, someday, will find what I have found.
Thank God for it ALL!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dr. F wrote: "4) God must know all knowledge and have a sort of brain, and source of power."
Have you ever heard of the term, Anthropomorphism. A fancy way of saying that we tend to make things in our own image, giving "God" human qualities like "a sort of brain," except in God's case, it's a super duper-big assed brain that knows everything for all time and stuff. And a body, too. And a power pack, like superheros, maybe. And he directs sh#t, like evolution, and arbitrarily
kills widows and orphans, which makes "Him" ("He" is a big white dood with a fat wallet, straight, etc.) confusing. Hell, he's you dad! Sort of.
Go back to what Ed was talking about. His was a rather popular phenomenological approach to consciousness, made famous by that boring old Kraut Emmanuel Kant, who said, basically, that since everything is extruded through consciousness, consciousness will always stand between us and "that" which enters our field of consciousness, ergo, the das ding an sich, or the-thing-as-such, is entirely unknowable. What we "know" or experience is in fact generated or sourced entirely by an evolved brain, mechanistically, and could be entirely "explained" in terms of material processes if we only knew a bit more. I'm saying it's all sourced by the void, and that out true nature is not "something" ever shifting, but the background from which all things arise and all things return, including consciousness itself.
JL
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Ed,
We've met and I respect you even though I don't really "know" you, for you are older than me (haha). No, really, it is obvious that you are much more edumacated than I am, but do you really, I mean really, think that we humans, as small as we are in comparison to our earth, not to mention, our solar system, oh yes, our galaxy, ah yes, the UNIVERSE, (comprising of how many identified galaxies thus far?), are going to be able to put our finger on exactly the how, what, where's and why's of existence one day? There's a book that's been around for some time now that say's it won't! If the Bible is just a conglomeration of many writings of men over the centuries, how's that for putting their reputation on the line?! I'm still waiting for these men to be proven wrong. Do you really think we'll do it, come up with all the answers?
I know it's our nature to be inquisitive and necessary for the advancement of technology, etc. but what harm does it do you, or anyone else for that matter, to give credit to God for EVERYTHING that exists? Would you have to acknowledge that you don't know everything? God forbid! That you would have a higher standard to live up to? Can't have that! That you would be "set apart" from the norm and others would say things about you? Good Lord no! The Bible even encourages us to use our individual "gifts" but we're just using them for the wrong purposes. All that knowledge upstairs, it's to be used for God, Family, Church. Once those are taken care of everything else is extra credit!
I lived the world Ed, for 45 years, 45 amazing years (I'm 48 now). At least that's what I thought. How wrong I was! I can look back now and see how selfish, how self centered, how egotistical I was, not to mention how HURTFUL I was to those that knew me, including my own children, and to those that didn't know me, ie; those that just observe me. It was "all about me" Ed and I know I'm speaking for many out there. It's not "all about you" folks. We've been lied to for many, many, many years!
Do you really want to know the way to live your life; what the truth is about your existence and your life? Again, there's ONE book out there, yes, only one, that lays claim to this, that put's ALL of it's reputation on the line by saying, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." - John 14:6 KJV
Thank you God for saving my life!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Thanks Largo-
Having just attended a Tibetan Buddhist retreat I was going to say something similar though not nearly as well. Tom Cochrane expressed something similar though in more western terms at Frank's memorial, when he stated, "I believe the universe is made of spirit on which the physical world floats, not the other way around".
As for Dr. F., he obviously is not happy with his atheistic stance no matter how much he tries to convince us. He's got way too much emotion invested for his arguments to be objective. Of course the line between love and hate is often quite thin. Better to stick with the middle way in my opinion.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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illusiondweller-
You are being culturecentric. There is definitely more than one sacred book out there that discusses God and how man should live.The interesting thing, is that they all pretty much agree on the how to live part.
While it's good that you have benefitted from the Bible, a billion or so other people on this planet living in India have benefitted equally from the Vedas and Upanishads, especially the Bhagavad Gita, and a billion or so in China have benefitted from the Tao Te Ching, the Analects of Confucius, and numerous Buddhist sutras. Then there's the mere hundreds of millions who have benefitted from the Koran.
Just because something has worked for you, doesn't mean the same formula will work for everybody.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jan,
First, I never said anything "worked for me". I continue to live with sin, suffering, turmoil and grief. Often I live in comfort, and regress, still thinking of myself. Some of this won't change but what HAS changed is that I've been forgiven and I am 100% sure that, when I die, I will not end up spending eternity in hell. All due respect to those non-Christians in India and elsewhere but after living with "what worked for them" they will end up in hell, spending eternity without Jesus Christ.
Second, please show me ONE other book that says, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." Really, I'd like to see it.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jesus is saying that He is "the way", "the truth" and "the life", "no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." If this is so then there is NO OTHER WAY, not Buddha, not Confuscious, not Tao Te Ching, nor "Vedas and Upanishads, especially the Bhagavad Gitaam", am I reading this correctly Jan?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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100% sure, huh?
Whatever gets you through the night.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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You see Jan, to say that something "worked for me" is saying that it's about me, that I get the credit. Like I said before, "it's not about you". What I'm sharing with you is about GOD, it's all about GOD, not me! God gets the credit! Do you see the difference?
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Yes sir, 100% sure...would you like to know how I'm sure cintune?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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illusiondweller-
I am quite sure that if you had been born into another culture where another religion prevailed, that when you found God, you would maintain with your current understanding, that the religion of that culture was absolutely the only one with any truth and try to convert us all to that one. The fact that you can not see yourself and your religious beliefs as a part of a particular culture is quite amazing to me.
Meanwhile, to use your argument, the Vedas claim that the high caste Brahmins are twice born and that everyone must become a Brahmin before they can reach enlightenment. It says so in their holy book therefore it must be true, right? After all there is only one book that says this and if its in only one book it must be true according to your reasoning.
Not surprising then that my Brahmin neighbors in Nepal used to tell me that they felt sorry for me. Despite all my education and opportunities I wasn't born Brahmin, therefore I had to be reincarnated at least once more - as a Brahmin. Of course many of them were illiterate and lived in poverty, but they definitely knew they had the truth compared to me and pitied me just as you do.
Frankly, I don't believe either of you. Any God worthy of the name, is certainly above human cultural limitations.
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