Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
John M
climber
|
|
|
Dec 10, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
|
Hey TGT. where did you get the graph on welfare? Link please..
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Dec 10, 2012 - 02:47pm PT
|
As far as your support of Palestine. Karl, sometime you just have to pick a side and do your best. I keep seeing you supporting the Palestinians (Philo as well). Maybe you read this today in the news. Mashaal, the leader of Hamas, has just effectively re-iterated that he will not negotiate the fact that all of Israel is theirs, and that the Zionists need to move elsewhere. This is the link to the Arab version, of course, somehow the Jewish version, whereby they feel that full translation is that they will be snuffed, is more alarmist.
Just because you say "Choose a side" doesn't mean that's two. Two wrongs don't make a right and often a big wrong creates another wrong. If some country attacked the US in earnest and seriously messed up a few cities here, we'd probably nuke em and kill tons of civilians.
Hamas was elected in Gaza partly in response to the lack of justice and progress being made for the Palestinians. If Israel hadn't be continually increasing settlement activity on Palestinian land, and oppressing them in other ways needlessly, I might have more sympathy for them.
As it is, Both the leaders of both sides are evil, and so I support new leadership on both sides
Peace
Karl
|
|
couchmaster
climber
pdx
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2012 - 04:19pm PT
|
Karl, can you show me a link to where the Palestinian leaders have said anything resembling "We want to live and let live" or "We support Israels right to exist". I believe that Abbas has said it one time. Yet the rest are quiet about it, and in fact, insist on the opposite.
It seems to me, that the Jews don't feel like being massacred: and they take steps to avoid it. They want security and life.
If you have links indicating that the Jews are ignoring that, I'd love to see it.
"I don't believe that accurately reflects what Hamas has just said. What they've said is that they will never acknowledge the right of an Israeli state to exist within the borders of pre-1946 Palestine. But in practically the same breath they basically say that they are willing to live with an Israeli state they still will not recognize so long as it's based on the '67 boundaries.
Semantics maybe, but important semantics to them."
"The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[1] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter or
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
They forgot to mention any borders in there. Polite way of saying, move along to the ovens bitte in my mind......Maybe you have some links wherein the Hamas leadership has renounced their charter or say that peace with Israel or the right of any Jew to live is of the slightest importance to them? They lost the war, several in fact and it's still on: and they are paying the price. They could have radically different, and better, lives had they chosen differently.
Words, like those in the Charter or Mein Kampf, are not to be ignored unless it's at our peril.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Dec 10, 2012 - 08:25pm PT
|
I wasn't referring to the charter but to the remarks by the leader of Hamas' during his recent visit to Gaza. But, if I were Palestinian rather than Irish, I'd for sure be a member of Hamas given this map:
By what right?
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
|
Dec 10, 2012 - 11:07pm PT
|
I wasn't referring to the charter but to the remarks by the leader of Hamas' during his recent visit to Gaza. But, if I were Palestinian rather than Irish, I'd for sure be a member of Hamas given this map:
Of course! Because if you were a jew-hating member of Hamas you would crush little jew-skulls with you rifle-butt in the name of freedom.
Jews realize this sh#t and chose to defend themselves from the murderers. So f*#k off!
Anytime a jewish girl has her brains bashed in they call it some form of liberation or legit retaliation.
When Jews defend themselves, it's hate. Meh!
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
|
Dec 10, 2012 - 11:13pm PT
|
Do you understand the concept of, "Defensible borders and ,to the winners go the spoils?"
Israel never asked to be attacked. Nor did they provoke it. It was jew-hate that inspired the attacks in 45 and 67.
The Jews won! Fair and square!
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
|
Dec 10, 2012 - 11:20pm PT
|
How did Israel provoke the attacks on their Statehood in 1945-46, or in 1967? Explain.
EDIT: Its a two way street blue.
No it's not~! Jews are targeting innocent arabs? When they find them alive the bash their skulls in?
NO. Israelis take wounded Arabs to Jewish hospitals for top-notch care.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
|
Dec 10, 2012 - 11:25pm PT
|
It's amazing that just because you guys spout certain sh#t you here, you think it's true.
Read the Israeli links as well, the ones that Amnesty and Human Rights Watch never get back to you on.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
|
Dec 10, 2012 - 11:26pm PT
|
Sure blue.. the palistinians are the bad people and the jews have never done anything bad. Got it.
I never said that, but you have the general idea. Yes.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
|
Dec 10, 2012 - 11:31pm PT
|
And, hey, I aint saying the Paleos are "bad". They just backed the wrong as#@&%es! Like Egypt!
They will have to suffer for that, just as we will suffer for re-electing Obama.
It will suck. But we (you idiots) voted for it.....
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
|
Dec 10, 2012 - 11:34pm PT
|
Ohhhh, we have a doctor in the haus!!!
Meh.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2012 - 12:07am PT
|
And US liberals actually support the Palestinian's seceding from Israel - the same as we support wing nuts like you seceding from the US
See, we agree on something!
Does this coincide with liberals supporting the deposing of Mubarak as ruler of Egypt in favor of the Muslim Brotherhood and Morsi?
And Assad for "soemthing else"?
Libya is all cool now, right?
EDIT:
How did Israel provoke the attacks on their Statehood in 1945-46, or in 1967? Explain.
Did anybody answer this question????
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2012 - 12:23am PT
|
Yes of course, in Repub Fantasy World, this is exactly what happened - liberals knew who would be replacing Mubarak
And you of course formed that opinion based on sourced, attributed journalism from reputable, internationally respected media outlets, which you can cite, and not out of the same orifice you excrete your solid bodily waste from
Um, no. Your president fomented this. Remember, the Arab Spring? This is on you idiots! You called for this. You OWN IT!!!!
People like me told you f*#king idiots this would backfire!!!! Who would fill the power--vacuum??? Idiots!
|
|
froodish
Social climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2012 - 12:37am PT
|
Couchmaster,
A couple of points...
It's not "Muslims vs. Jews" in Palestine, there are many Christian Palestinians that are subject to the same humiliations of occupation. As for Hamas, Israel is as much to blame for Hamas' rising influence in the region as anyone. Even ignoring their early support and funding as a religious foil to the secular Fatah, they have continued to play the various factions against each other to ensure that there is no "credible partner" to negotiate with. It's no surprise that helping make Fatah ineffectual has led to Hamas gaining power.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2012 - 12:45am PT
|
Froodish, Israel supported FATA, not HAMAS.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2012 - 04:58am PT
|
How did Israel provoke the attacks on their Statehood in 1945-46,
They unilaterally declared themselves a state (just like they decry the Palestinians for doing)
Remember, there were less than 10,000 jews in Israel at the turn of the 20th century. England was the colonial power who ruled that land there (as if they had ANY right to do that, or give the land to people who weren't even living there) very convenient for everyone but the Palestinians.
and of course they won and got the spoils, only by virtue of being supported by modern western weapons
Peace
Karl
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2012 - 05:02am PT
|
They forgot to mention any borders in there. Polite way of saying, move along to the ovens bitte in my mind....
Dude, it's Israel that refuses to suggest what it's borders should be and is in defiance of UN resolutions calling for it to return to its 1967 borders which were still far in excess of it's UN mandate
Peace
Karl
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Dec 11, 2012 - 05:36am PT
|
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/12/09-0
Walid al Nassasra and two of his daughters stand staring into the pit where his brothers sheet-metal roofed, cinder-block home stood until it was hit in a pin-point strike with a precision guided bomb from an F-16 fighter jet (provided by the United States) on 19 Nov 2012 at 10 pm as the family slept. If not for the clothes and bedding strewn about, it would be difficult to tell that a home once stood here. His brother Taqwfiq, like Walid, is a farmer. Their family has been farming in the Rafah area of Gaza for 35 years. They are poor people, scratching out a living on a small plot of land. As we sat and talked with Walid, Israeli F-16's roared across the sky.
His brother as well as a 12 year old nephew remains hospitalized, the nephew is in the ICU with skull and hip fractures. His sister-in-law is blind after her head and upper body was severely burned.
His 4 year-old niece suffers severe burns and a fractured leg stabilized by an external fixation device. In this kind of reduction, holes are drilled into uninjured areas of bones around the fracture and special bolts or wires are screwed into the holes. Outside the body, a rod or a curved piece of metal with special ball-and-socket joints joins the bolts to make a rigid support. The fracture can be set in the proper anatomical configuration by adjusting the ball-and-socket joints. Since the bolts pierce the skin, proper cleaning to prevent infection at the site surgery must be performed. Yes, I said his niece is 4 years old. She has been released to the home. They bring her to us to show us her damaged body, her face covered in burns, her leg with eight metal screws holding it together. She is crying. All 9 surviving members of the family were injured in the blast.
Two nephews, Ahmed and Mohamed, were killed. (Yes, every Martyr, innocent civilian, and resistance fighter here has a name. Everyone killed here has family left behind who grieves for them. Everyone.)
There was no warning given. No calls, no leaflets, no roof tapping. Just an enormous explosion in the night that made Walid think his house was bombed, eighty meters away, as all the windows exploded and the walls rattled.
When Walid was asked what he would say to the people of the US, he said, "The American people already received our message. During 'Cast Lead' the American people saw that the majority of the martyrs and injuries were civilians, and they didn't do anything. They deal with Israel as if it is a state in America."
President Obama said, "There’s no country on Earth that would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders." We supply the planes, we supply the bombs, we supply the vetoes at the UN Security Council that gives cover to these crimes. We as Americans are complicit. The question is, "How much longer will we tolerate it?"
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!