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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Sep 13, 2010 - 03:05pm PT
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The DA is NEVER presumed to be impartial. No more than the defense attorney. Both are advocates. One for the State, one for the defendant.
We make a big mistake when we assume the DA is impartial. Then we begin to believe that she's only going to tell us the truth and will tell us anything that is in the defendant's favor. The prosecutor will stretch the truth as far as possible and will hide as much exculpatory evidence he can get away with. It's the Judge's and defense attorney's job to hold the prosecutor to the truth. And the same the other way around.
It's to the jury to sort out the "truth" the best they can.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2010 - 03:15pm PT
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Currently there is a wide margin of individual discretion on the taser use.
Look for that to narrow to a more definitive set of guidelines as more cases of questionable use get litigated.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Sep 13, 2010 - 03:23pm PT
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Earlier in this thread I wondered what additional legal defenses would be available in a parallel scenario: one in which when an ‘alleged jumper’ with large backpack was first spotted walking in El Cap Meadow and was intercepted by LEOs, the alleged jumper remained completely silent and refused a search and refused to answer any questions without an attorney present.
If he had done that he wouldn't have needed any additional defenses because he would not have been tased or arrested.
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PP
Trad climber
SF,CA
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Sep 13, 2010 - 04:03pm PT
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when my friend got a change of venue in the valley, as i posted earlier, the public defender whose office was in a VW bus in the parking lot told him to go into the court and when the judge and DA were about to start he was to stand up and recite " I request a change of venue" and to keep saying it until they gave it. Apparently it worked and off to fresno he went where the judge dropped the charges for letting the air out of a ranger vehicle's tires.
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MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
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Sep 13, 2010 - 04:19pm PT
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Ammon obviously does not have an attorney telling him to STFU.
Ammon used a public defender for his DUI.
Chances are that this case will not get even close to a trial.
Public Defenders are not free in all places if at all. If you are found guilty or take a plea the state/county gets to charge you for the services of the PD.
If you don't follow the court procedure you are in contempt of court. So watch out how much of a scene you want to make in court. It isn't a play ground for children.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Sep 13, 2010 - 04:29pm PT
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The PD is often paid and funded less than the DA. and has larger workloads. I always thought that was unfair. Plus the legal system works better when there's competent representation.
You can usually only get a change of venue if there is compelling reason. Not likely here.
If Ammon elected a jury trial, then it might be shifted to Mariposa or Fresno, where they have the resources to deal with it. My impression is that the Yosemite court mostly deals with guilty pleas and sentencing, and non-jury trials for lesser offences. Yosemite is in the Fresno district - last September, the pleas and sentencing of the two Spanish boys was done by videoconference from Fresno, where the judge sits. It seemed a routine thing for the court staff.
Otherwise, the only defence may be to show that there's a reasonable doubt as to identity, in effect that they didn't have reasonable and probable cause to stop Ammon, and that any evidence obtained thereafter shouldn't be admitted, either for that reason or because there was a violation of constitutional rights. The evidence linking what was identified as a basejumper in the air at twilight, to someone walking with a pack in the meadow, may only be circumstantial, and not enough to show probable cause.
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MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
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Sep 13, 2010 - 04:39pm PT
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Wow, I agree with MH. But only the first paragraph.
Cops don’t need probable cause to stop someone. Just mere suspicion. Then it went all downhill for Ammon. Running, resisting arrest, and confession to the crime.
Someone in the meadow with what appears to be BASE gear after a sighting of a jumper = mere suspicion
There was an off duty ranger that probably saw the whole thing. Pretty good witness.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2010 - 05:18pm PT
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Did he really use a PD for a DUI?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Sep 13, 2010 - 05:25pm PT
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Tony, use of a taser is not use of deadly force, no matter how many times you say it. The courts do not view it as using deadly force.
According to the officers and prosecuting attorney, there was a way for Ammon to easily avoid the use of force. Comply with their demands to stop, and do not struggle with officers while being placed under arrest. Which is probably the better way to arrest someone for a crime, then letting them flee hoping they turn themselves in later under that f*#king stupid honor theory you cooked up.
you're missing the point, stinkeye. the question is whether such force is appropriate, and consequently whether arrest, with all its legal sanctions, was appropriate in this case. this leads to another question. was ammon singled out for this? was it planned to make an example of him?
use of a taser in resisting arrest may be appropriate, but, as i say, a girlfriend left behind ought to be a no-brainer. law enforcement would look much better dealing through her as an accomplice, pressing charges until ammon gave himself up. it would've made ammon look a lot worse as well. maybe he fled because he didn't want to feel the pain of a tasering. the crux of this matter is not the BASE jump, which seems pretty cut-and-dried, but the circumstances of arrest. the fact that law enforcement chose to taser under these circumstances may indicate that use of the taser was ordered by a superior. premeditated tasering?
as ron says, there aren't any real guidelines for tasering. that use-of-force continuum is totally meaningless and keeps the issue vague, as i'm sure law enforcement prefers it. meanwhile, "don't tase me, bro" sent a brutal message to everyone in the country who may want to confront a public figure like john kerry in a public forum, our right under the constitution. the ammon tasering sends a similar message to would-be BASE jumpers. this is NOT the way government ought to operate.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2010 - 05:38pm PT
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Can a federal magistrate send someone to getmo?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 13, 2010 - 05:41pm PT
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Third time- there might be a message there. Constantly flaunting authority doesn't usually work- do we have the beginnings of a new "Cool Hand Luke."
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2010 - 05:44pm PT
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I like the way in CHL that Paul Newman's character is a returning war hero that gets drunk and starts cutting down the parking meters that have appeared in his absence, getting him sent to the chain gang.
Does the Chief Ranger look anything like Strother Martin?
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Sep 13, 2010 - 05:48pm PT
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Bet Ammon can eat 50 eggs...
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pc
climber
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Sep 13, 2010 - 05:49pm PT
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Donini, I'll get the boiled eggs ready. ;)
IMO Best self torture scene ever.
edit. Brian SLC beat me to the eggs. I'll still supply them.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2010 - 05:51pm PT
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I want to see Ammon eat 50 eggs and then fly the squirrel suit.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 13, 2010 - 07:22pm PT
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GC wrote:
2. It is not to the climbing community's benefit to associate itself with BASE jumpers. Doing this has many more cons than pros.
I have to agree.
I am not commenting on this instance or on Ammon, but I do agree with the above.
Rad climbers are rad, and I support them, go be rad, that's rad.
Rad climbers are also highly visible.
When we all go to the Valley or other climbing areas on Public lands, we all deal on some level (even if it's a very low level) with whatever reality is created by our whole community.
If we all sit around and cheer for rad climbers as they do rad stuff, and then make excuses fr them when they do dumb stuff, well, we are all contributing to the reality that we have to deal with.
And additionally, if we all blame LEO Rangers for chasing a guy who runs away from them, well, you do the math.
(I also suggest not running from Grizzly's or Mountain Lions.
Why not? It's not likey to lead to a good outcome...)
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Sep 13, 2010 - 08:47pm PT
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"Otherwise, the only defence may be to show that there's a reasonable doubt as to identity, in effect that they didn't have reasonable and probable cause to stop Ammon, and that any evidence obtained thereafter shouldn't be admitted, either for that reason or because there was a violation of constitutional rights. The evidence linking what was identified as a basejumper in the air at twilight, to someone walking with a pack in the meadow, may only be circumstantial, and not enough to show probable cause."
If he ran when he saw the rangers, as the complaint says, they had cause to stop him for that alone.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Sep 13, 2010 - 08:52pm PT
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If they can prove that he knew or should have known that they were rangers. Most likely his word against theirs, but as the rangers were in plain clothes, and it was dusk, that may not help the prosecution.
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MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
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Sep 13, 2010 - 09:04pm PT
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If they can prove that he knew or should have known that they were rangers. Most likely his word against theirs, but as the rangers were in plain clothes, and it was dusk, that may not help the prosecution.
WFT? MH, why are you making things up??
On duty rangers responded and yelled at Ammon "Stop Police". He ran.
Strike against Ammon.
Anything else you want to make up? Why don't you make a video?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 13, 2010 - 09:10pm PT
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Climb in a NP and you abide by the rules, like them or not. I have to say that I love the complete absence of dogs. Climbers who openly flaunt rules and then cry foul do no good for climbing in general. Grownups take their punishment and move on.
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