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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Aug 14, 2009 - 08:12pm PT
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The Yates is the yellow one!
Hopefully someone will send you a Metolius aider for testing so we can do a three way comparison.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area
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Aug 15, 2009 - 12:08am PT
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100 kg load on the adjustable daisy after a drop test
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Knuckles
Trad climber
Everett, Wa
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Aug 15, 2009 - 01:03am PT
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It'll be interesting to see how these tests shake out.
My experience has been with Yates and I am a large dude (265lbs. without rack/rope) and I've taken a full length daisy fall onto my Yates and bent a BD Cliffhanger to 90 degrees at which point it blew off it's solid placement but the Yates adjustable daisy did not break.
I was pleased... with the daisy at least.
Pete
How exactly do you adjust the Yates while weighted with one hand? It seems to me that depressing the buckle while weighting it would lengthen the daisy uncontrolably.
I did a similiar thing as a rookie window washer on a gri-gri thinking I could just squeeze the cam open ever so slightly with my left hand while manipulating something with my right. Unfortunately I was about six feet over some guys platic roof on his deck and I promptly put my foot through it. Live and learn.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Aug 15, 2009 - 01:13am PT
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Having your partner or another piece of weighted webbing accidently open up the adjustable buckle on your daisy is pretty horrifying, although in my personal experience (and as luck would have it), the cam has always closed up after no more than a foot or two. It has happened enough that I keep one eye peeled and warn my non-adjustable-using partners that they will send me around the bend if they lay into my buckle.
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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Aug 16, 2009 - 11:42am PT
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Quick bump as a reminder that I need you all to decide to tell me how to test these... I've never done aid/wall so have no idea how you typically use these things.
Couple questions:
1. When these things do slip, what are you doing? Hanging/bouncing/heavily loaded while hauling? It would be easy enough to rig the puller to pull to a couple kN and stop, allowing us to get some data on that prior to breaking them in a drop.
2. When adjusting I assume it is usually not weighted? By which I mean would a reading on the force needed to pull the free end through the buckle be of any use?
3. Similarly, any use in a reading of the force necessary to pull through the buckle when weighted? And if so, how much weight?
4. Anyone have a recent vintage Yates and wouldn't mind counting the teeth on their buckle? There's not really a point in doing a comparison if they use the same buckle, so I'm looking to verify that there's some consistency in the buckles being different on FISH and YATES.
5. Given that both use 1" flat web for the adjustable part I'm thinking we may want to cut off the beat up Yellow web on the YATES and replace it with the new Orange FISH web. Not really a fair comparison of pull force when there's fat, shredded web on the YATES and practically new web on the FISH.
6. @John Mac- For the Metolius I assume you mean the Easy Daisy, not the Easy Aider?
Thoughts?
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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Aug 16, 2009 - 02:39pm PT
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Stopped by the local REI and not surprisingly no dice on the Metolius Easy Aider. Guess I could order one unless someone happens to have one they'd be willing to donate...
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Aug 16, 2009 - 05:25pm PT
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Welcome to the world of non equal testing environments Aric!
The buckles are different even within the same part number.... I always found that weird. Tooth radius and density varies, as does the cam trigger and the peening process for holding the cam in place. I have received both kinds, mixed, in the same order.
The webbing that I use even though it is all 1" flat, can be thicker per color, have a heavier hand, or just be flat out be different across the board. Some of it is so thick that the buckles will barely work... others feel like tissue.
Not sure what to tell ya... the orange webbing if you check it real close is slicker and probably thicker and will have a different feel than the purple in the buckle.... yet they are both listed as "the same" from the supplier.
I say just drop test them and lets all hope none of them fail at like 300lbs!
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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Aug 17, 2009 - 05:18pm PT
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Well, no answers to my questions above yet so I've gone ahead and made some assumptions and started formulating a plan...
What'll be tested:
1. I figure I may as well include a Metolius Easy Daisy (EDIT) in this, so went ahead and ordered one. Should be here late in the week.
2. I missed the mention of the Petzl Quickfix earlier in the thread and will include one of those as well if there's interest. Sounds as if it's quite weak though, so I figured I'd ask if anyone even uses it before blowing $30 on it. For some reason my wife doesn't like when I buy gear with the sole intention of breaking it....
3. Teh Google turned up [url="http://www.bigwalls.com/forum2/index.php?topic=534.0"]this DIY adjustable daisy (EDIT)[/url], which looks quite easy rig up.
4. [url="http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=925984&tn=28"]Jay Wood's DIY adjustable daisy (EDIT)[/url] from earlier in the thread is similar to the other DIY one, but possibly a bit harder to rig due to not having a similar buckle to cannibalize. I may be able to come up with something though, and if so will include it.
The tests:
1. Force required to pull through when unweighted.
2. Force required to pull through with 100# hanging from it (load cells on weighted side, free side and top anchor)
2b. Force to extend/ease of extension when unloaded
2c. Ease of extending when loaded
3. Load to 2 or 3kN (perhaps higher?) and see what happens, taking note of creep and/or failure
4. 10 successive 6" drops of 150#, noting creep/failure
5. FF1 drop of 150# to finish it off
That's about all I can come up with. Anything else or something to change?
-aric.
EDIT because I accidentally swapped terms...
EDITx2- Added tests 2b and 2c
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Aug 17, 2009 - 05:22pm PT
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"Stopped by the local REI and not surprisingly no dice on the Metolius Easy Aider."
What does the Met Easy Aider have to do with this? Thought we were testing daisies?
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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Aug 17, 2009 - 05:57pm PT
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D'oh! Kindly substitute "daisy" for "aider" in my earlier post. As I said, I'm not an aid climber... :-D
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Aug 17, 2009 - 06:04pm PT
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hahaha Figured it was a typo. No worries. :)
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Aug 17, 2009 - 06:10pm PT
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Aric: be sure to look at this thread: Adjustable daisy math:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=92228
I think it has some stuff on one of the tests you are going to perform.....
Side note: if you want any stuff from me, like tubular web sewn/threaded into a buckle, or a "no-wrap" attachment where the webbing is not wrapped around the hard edge of the buckle, etc. let me know and I'll send it on over.
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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Aug 17, 2009 - 07:45pm PT
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Thanks Russ. It's actually your test from the other thread I'm looking to duplicate, with the addition of force measurements at all three points. :-)
And nice thing about doing hydraulically is that I'll capture not just the force needed to overcome the static friction but also what'll be needed to keep it going. There was a lot of armchair engineering in that thread that I'd like to put some numbers to...
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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Aug 18, 2009 - 05:28pm PT
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Last call for input before I finalize things and start breaking stuff. As I've said, I've never done aid so am only vaguely familiar with how you guys use these things and would appreciate some guidance with the testing so I'm not breaking stuff simply for the sake of breaking it. The last thing I want is to be putting bad info due to incorrect assumptions on my part out there....
Outstanding questions:
1. When these things do slip, what are you doing? Hanging/bouncing/heavily loaded while hauling? It would be easy enough to rig the puller to pull to a couple kN and stop, allowing us to get some data on that prior to breaking them in a drop.
2. When adjusting I assume it is usually not weighted? By which I mean would a reading on the force needed to pull the free end through the buckle be of any use?
3. Similarly, any use in a reading of the force necessary to pull through the buckle when weighted? And if so, how much weight?
4. Given that both the FISH and YATES use 1" flat web for the adjustable part I'm thinking we may want to cut off the beat up Yellow web on the YATES and replace it with the new Orange FISH web. Not really a fair comparison of pull force when there's fat, shredded web on the YATES and practically new web on the FISH.
What'll be tested:
1. I figure I may as well include a Metolius Easy Daisy in this, so went ahead and ordered one. Should be here late in the week.
2. I missed the mention of the Petzl Quickfix earlier in the thread and will include one of those as well if there's interest. Sounds as if it's quite weak though, so I figured I'd ask if anyone even uses it before blowing $30 on it. For some reason my wife doesn't like when I buy gear with the sole intention of breaking it....
3. Teh Google turned up this DIY adjustable daisy, which looks quite easy rig up.
4. Jay Wood's DIY adjustable daisy from earlier in the thread is similar to the other DIY one, but possibly a bit harder to rig due to not having a similar buckle to cannibalize. I may be able to come up with something though, and if so will include it.
The tests:
1. Force required to pull through when unweighted.
2. Force required to pull through with 100# hanging from it (load cells on weighted side, free side and top anchor)
2b. Force to extend/ease of extension when unloaded (not sure how to test yet...)
2c. Ease of releasing/extending when loaded (how much load? Also not sure how to test yet...)
3. Load to 2 or 3kN (perhaps higher?) and see what happens, taking note of creep and/or failure
4. 10 successive 6" drops of 150#, noting creep/failure
5. FF1 drop of 150# to finish it off
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Aug 22, 2009 - 12:04am PT
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Aric,
Let me know how much you spent on the metolius daisy and I'll send some money to you via paypal. There is no reason why you should be paying for this.
Cheers
John
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Any updates on the testing?
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xtrmecat
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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Aric may be a little aprehensive to test and post for a couple. Over on RC.noob I gave him some flack about posting data about this, for the sake of keeping data that could screw up a noobs learning process. It turned slightly ugly, but he may be aprehensive to follow through.
If you see this Aric, I do not believe the audience here and over at the BigWall site are too inexperienced to hear the data. ( Noobs get a quick education here, or a kick to the groin, or whatever.) If you do indeed follow up with the testing, I would again caution posting it in the more amatureish websites.
For those curious as to my thinking, and the thread, here it is.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2192239;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;page=unread#unread
I may have been out of line, but some of the monumental idiots over there take simple things and run them into the ground with pages and pages of simple do not do's, and when it is all said and done, the noob may interpret the do not's as OK.
Sorry if I held up your curiosity. Flame away, but it is habit for me, from my professional life. Every time we made some machine idiot proof, they would hire a better idiot.
Bob
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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ummm... Bob..... That link has nothing to do with what you are gurgling about.
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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Sorry guys, forgot to update here. First off, sorry for the delay on the testing... Seems par for the course for me lately. Too many things catching my interest lately.
Here's the scoop of the moment: I haven't had a chance to do it yet and am headed out for a week of climbing. Again, sorry about that. On the up side, I forwarded a copy of the proposed tests to a contact I have at Metolius for feedback and what I have posted above looked good to him. My concern with the testing was that there's no UIAA spec for me to test to, so wanted to make sure I wasn't out in left field with what I was planning to do. It just happens that I caught him in a busy period, so it took him a while to take a look at it.
Anyway, once I get back next Weds I just need to fab up the bracket for the plates on the drop fixture and then I'll bang these out, with 'these' being the FISH, YATES, Metolius, 2 DIY rigs and a homemade KONG Slyde.
Gotta go, lots of packing to do.
-a.
EDIT- Oh, hey there Bob.... No worries about our tiff over on RC. I understand fully where you're coming from with it. I actually didn't want to spread this over there, but got impatient for feedback on the proposed testing since folks here seemed to have wandered off. Anyway, I'll get the testing done ASAP once I'm back next week.
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PhotogEC
climber
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So, as Russ mentioned in an earlier post, he sent me a modified version of the Fish adjustable daisies to try out, making me an Official Fish Products Tester®.
With the opening caveat that I don't have nearly as much experience with these things as most of you out there, here, after a full day of using both, is my feedback, which is focused on Russ' modified version vs. the "standard." Other folks have commented on Fish vs. Yates elsewhere.
First, some relevant measurements:
Modified:
Girth loop: 4-1/2 inches (from end of loop to end of bartacks on the webbing)
Clip-in loop: 1-1/8 inches (from the top of the buckle to the top of the loop)
Standard:
Girth loop: 7 inches
Clip-in loop: 4 inches
Everything else was equivalent between the two.
Observations while using:
1. The clip-in loop on the modified version is VERY short--a little too short. I found that the buckle was so close to the biner, it limited movement a little bit. I also found myself holding the top of the buckle and bottom of the biner together when clipping into a piece, which was not the most comfortable arrangement.
2. The modified's clip-in loop is a double loop of tubular webbing. Russ kindly had attached a note to the daisy that you need to clip through both loops--well and good if you're paying attention, but if you're not, it would be really easy to only clip one loop.
3. For my purposes, the shorter girth clip-in loops on the modified version were WAY better than the standard. With the standard version, all the way cinched in, I was really far from the wall, regardless of whether I had the daisy on my belay loop or directly in the tie-in loops of the harness. Much too far for my liking, and I found myself using a combination of daisy and fifi, which was slowing me down. With the modified version, I could pull in much closer--no fifi needed. The combined difference of the shorter girth and clip-in loops is over 5". That's 5 inches closer to the wall you can get with the modified daisy! I could comfortably reach placements from the second step of my aiders with the modified version that I was having to go into my top step to reach using the standard, unless I also fifi'd into the piece. I'm a little over 5'8", so this is may be less of an issue for the taller folks out there, but it made a huge difference to me.
So, if I were in the Fish Products Product Development Department, here's what I would do: switch to the modified version of the daisy, but extend the clip-in loop slightly, and bartack it into a really short dogbone.
Let me know if you have any specific questions about either daisy, points of comparison against the Yates, or if there are more pics of any specific details you'd like posted.
Thanks for the daisy, Russ; I'll be putting it to good use!
--Eric
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