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Sancho
climber
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Feb 12, 2009 - 07:48pm PT
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Ok, so $60k is a little on the high side. Let's say $55k.
That still does not detract from the argument that teachers, when you count their summer vacation, benefits, retirement plan and job security, are compensated appropriately.
As for teachers working 80 hours a week, I call bull $hit. Either your math is bad, you are counting nap time, or you work too slow.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 12, 2009 - 08:09pm PT
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I jus't want to know if any of this' is' going to help with the monstrous' s'in of apos'trophe abus'e.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Feb 12, 2009 - 08:41pm PT
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I know a teacher who really is very smart. She graduated Princeton, then went back to take enough physics to qualify for NJ teaching requirements, which actually put her past the real norm.
But I must say, part of the reasons teachers may work "long hours" grading is because they create poor exams (from the grading perspective).
I helped grade a number of exams and "partial credit" is a disaster on a poorly designed exam. Her exams had great problems, but they typically had 3 or 4 parts. If you missed part one, it was hopeless that you would get the right answer for the subsequent parts. (These were layups for somebody who really knew the material.)
That is the way the "real world" operates. If you are supposed to land a spacecraft on the moon and you fail to make the earth orbit, or fail to leave at the right time with the right thrust, somebody is going to die! (I got a Princeton grad student teaching math to agree, but I don't think she ever got to make that her policy. LOL.)
But she (the HS physics teacher) insisted on trying to grade parts 2-4 to see if the kid understood. That takes an enormous amount of time. Now it was her first year. Maybe by now she has figured a way to "uncouple" the concepts and test them all in a simpler fashion.
Her problem was that a one hour exam for 25 kids took at least 10 minutes per kid to grade (unless they got nearly 100), so the one hour exam took over 4 hours to grade.
I also saw an exam created by an English teacher for The Odyssey. One of the questions involved ordering 7 events in the correct order. For those of you who are not familiar, the work is essentially episodic. The kidnapping of Helen and the Trojan war come first, then Odysseus eventually gets back home. This English teacher did not have a clue that if you knew the correct order of 6 of 7 of the items, that on average you would only get half credit for the question! Yikes! What is worse, is that he threw this question on just to make grading easy. But what did it measure?
When we want better teachers, we will offer more competitive compensation (especially in math and sciences), and we will abolish tenure. Today, the gifted and talented, for the most part, will avoid an education major, knowing that the end result is relatively low pay - though I have seen a study that suggests that the pay is very fair accounting for vacation, pensions, tenure and talent.
What will we do with better teachers? Hmm. There is a tough question. What could be tougher than teaching classes with kids that could be a grade or two higher and kids that should be a grade or two lower?
I taught a bit in grad school. Nursing students who only wanted a good grade in physics - not understanding. And ag students, who didn't even care. Why would ag students take physics? Probably even Einstein could not answer that one. :-)
Could it be rewarding? Sure - probably every class has 10-20% of students who are truly gifted and/or truly motivated to master a subject.
BTW. I think first year (in physics) gets you north of 60 here. Pretty damn fine start for a 9 month job. Software guys start a little north of that too, but work long hours for 12 months.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 12, 2009 - 09:07pm PT
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Me am a teacher....(I mean, I is a teacher....)......most teachers teach for 1-5 years;...that's alot of edumacation to only bow out after a few years;...what gives?.....
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Dirk
Trad climber
...and now, Manhattan
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Feb 12, 2009 - 09:44pm PT
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Moving from the Valley to Manhattan has been a bummer in some regards, so thank god for my amazing 11th-grade students. Now all you business types out there, if you wanted to run a software company that attracted the best employees would you offer them a high or low salary?
The thing that blows my mind is that 6-8 years of college aren't necessary to qualify for this job.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Feb 12, 2009 - 09:55pm PT
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Todd,
Your life expectancy of a teacher is on the money. A majority leave the profession within the first five years. Why ?? You may be surprised to find out that money is not on the list. Lack of support and resources continues to be the number one reason. This is especially true in the current system of regimented standards-based education with the only measuring stick being a standardized test. Standardized tests are fine as long as you realize they serve more of a political purpose than educational. The heart and soul of education is really about relationships. Relationships between teachers, teachers and students, teachers and parents, and the culture of a school that truly places student achievement first. As educators continue to get beaten up based on the most recent standardized test scores, and marching rank and file to the recommendations of the most recent edcuational consultant, a large percentage of our student population is totally disengaged from the learning experience. What is the answer from the educational beauracracy.........more focus on new intervention programs, curriculum, and "holding teachers accountable". Nobody wants to talk about why Johnny is disengaged from the learning experience. The answer.....because the SH#TE your peddling him would put an adult to sleep !!!! Teachers are leaving the profession because they are not trusted, and are not given the freedom to use their creativity in engaging the student. Until this changes you will not see much change in student achievement, especially among the underrepresented student populations in this country. Is it any wonder we can't attrack anyone into the teaching profession ????
Respectfully,
Cracko
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Feb 12, 2009 - 10:00pm PT
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I would like to apologize to Russ Walling for inadvertently mispelling the word attract as attrack. Sh#t happens Russ, but I guarantee you if you were a student in my 8th grade social studies class, back in the day when I taught and wasn't an administrator, you and I would have connected, and you would have been fully engaged !!!
Cracko
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Dirk
Trad climber
...and now, Manhattan
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Feb 12, 2009 - 10:01pm PT
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Word.
Attention haters, does your problem really lie with teachers or with administrators?
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Feb 12, 2009 - 10:10pm PT
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Dirk,
Careful now !! Please don't simplify this whole debate by targeting administrators. I've been a middle school principal for the last fifteen years, after teaching for ten. The system, i.e. NCLB and standards-based education, is what needs to be scrutinized and not individuals within the system. Together, we can find a solution !!! By the way Jaybro, would you please email me so we can discuss adventure based education and the Special Ed. population ???
Cracko
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Rankin
climber
Bishop, CA
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Feb 12, 2009 - 10:17pm PT
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Teaching is a crappy job, only made worse by the bureaucracy of a school system, any school system. I'll tell you why children don't learn well in school...bad parenting. Who do you think will have more of an impact on the development of a child's mind, the person who sees them for one hour a day, five days a week, or the person(s) that spend numerous hours everyday with the child from the time of the child's birth to until the child's maturation to young adulthood? It seems obvious to me, that the parent can have a much more profound impact. But it's these same parents who complain when their children grow into dumb asses.
If people want children to learn more at school, then empower teachers, and pay them more. The cream will float to the top.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Feb 12, 2009 - 10:27pm PT
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Rankin,
While I don't disagree with you, I must ask you where does that lead us?? I have told my teachers the following: You either accept the fact that teaching is parenting and you must find ways to inspire and instill in kids the values they are not getting from home, or you reject that fact and build more prisons. The choice is ours !!!
Cracko
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 12, 2009 - 11:06pm PT
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Cracko;.......How about LA School Dist. boycotting standardized test to save 150 million dollars?.........(It's a start...)...We are losing 60 to 80 teachers......in the toilet goes classroom size reduction, and special ed programs so teachers will now be mainstreaming more special needs students with our new bulging classrooms.......plus no pay raise and cut in benies........maybe russ can hire me part time for minimum wage to crimp copperheads or sew aiders.......(As for the 80 hr. work week for teachers;...some do it;....I usually stuck to the 50 hour work week myself......)
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Feb 12, 2009 - 11:07pm PT
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Thx. for the tip Jaybro...I have heard of such fantastical tales of getting paid while you student teach. Here's the skinny. I got a friend who is in such said program via Montana State. It's a two year program (via the internet, which is a nice bonus) and includes paid student teaching. IU has a 9 mo. program including your indentured servitude for 3-4 mos. I opted for the express lane and swallow my losses during the student teaching. Probably not the best plan of action, but then again I've never been too good at either planning or action. Hope to before I dye! Thx. again for the tip...
Edit: That's awesome news Todd, once again my "timing in life" to become a teacher is uncanny.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 12, 2009 - 11:18pm PT
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Dick;...don't be discouraged;....kids need teachers like you;.....and with things getting more stressed, a bunch of teachers are going to quit, have heart attacks and die, get fired for not meeting standardized test scores, ...and I bet most districts will start thinking up some early retirement for the veteran teachers to bow out before they are carried out feet first... because they cost twice as much as the fresh meat........you will get a job, and you will love it......especially the kids, the vacations, and the stellar pay and benies......(Maybe even a donut or three at a stimulating staff meeting to boot....)
These three are about ready for the institution process to begin......and as George sez;.....he don't want them to be left behind..........I think they want/need more math and reading, and no art or music.....but I'm not sure on that;......wonder what Obama thinks?
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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Feb 12, 2009 - 11:24pm PT
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Actually as a teacher I’m not really too offended by folks like Russ when he makes the observations he does. In fact I think they are pretty legit. You see that is how most of the US public views teaching and schools and there is a lot of truth in what he says.
As an institution public education really hasn’t changed that much in the last 80 years or so. But, the world in which students enter and leave has.
Our society has done a lousy job adapting to change in this regard. So, in my mind much of the “problems” that schools have is a direct result of this, and is our society’s fault. Not just teachers.
Public education needs a re-haul. But, and I think this IS important and to keep in mind, most teachers will always be willing to make it better, or put the effort into improving what they do and can do for students because their profession IS all about caring. Caring for someone other than themselves and caring about the “product” we “produce”. The money issue supports this.
Tenure is a result of the need for job security. Unfortunately I’d have to say it’s got a bum rap and for good reasons. If any one is incompetent in their job they should not be able to keep their job. This includes teachers. It’s the “lousy” teachers that give all teachers a bad name as is true for cops (Fatty you listening :>), or any other profession. Most people (as was stated earlier) think they are “experts” on teaching just because they have gone through school. Therefore they are “qualified” to determine competence in the teaching profession.
Many school districts are (and have been) scrambling for money for years. It is always cheaper to hire new teachers at a lower salary than to keep teachers that have built up experience (and pay) over the years. And, experience in this profession is an underrated variable. But, having “new blood” enter the profession and infuse energy has been key in keeping it all afloat.
If a teacher wants to move to a different district, state or whatever they are penalized in ways that affect their pay. Only so many years of teaching experience are transferable. So, many teachers do not move because it is financial suicide to do so sometimes resulting in unhappiness in their present jobs burnout or whatever.
One might say “then get a different job that pays more or quite complaining…” Is that the only choice for a person that has spent years educating themselves, gaining experience on the job, making connections to youngsters, changing lives, and loving what they do? Or should we recognize that salary should reflect all the above?
One thing to keep in mind; I can not think of any other profession that has the potential to impact positively or negatively the lives of youngsters. Society should not only recognize this but put in the resources, support, and expectations in steering our young people into making positive contributions to our world.
Teaching is a tough profession regardless of what you think or don’t think. As in any other field there are good teachers and there are teachers that are not good ones. To say they are paid too much, or have too much vacation time, or whatever just shows your ignorance.
Oh, and some teachers DO spend 80 hours…I don’t:>) At some point I realized I have a life too-and it is not just in the classroom.
Cheers,
DD
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Rankin
climber
Bishop, CA
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Feb 12, 2009 - 11:47pm PT
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Cracko, I agree that we're screwed. Teaching is not parenting. It is the responsibility of the parent to prepare the child's mind to learn, and to behave civilly in public, including the classroom. It's not the teacher's job to love the child, but schools should set firm behavioral boundaries, for the interests of learning. Any attempts to establish a value system in the child's mind without the backing of the family is futile. As painful, and cold as this sounds, teaching emphasis should be a about academia, and misconduct should be punished appropriately, not lovingly.
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Feb 12, 2009 - 11:56pm PT
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Thx. Todd...I won't get discouraged. I know I'll love it, it's a great fit. I just have to laugh at the timing of things. In '02 I bailed out of the teaching program in Wyoming. Starting pay was $26K...2 yr.s later the nat. gas boom was in full swing and starting pay shot up to $42K! Had to laugh over that one. I'm not doing it for the money, doing it for the intrinsic reward. Thx. for the pep talk...gotta go to bed, cheers.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 13, 2009 - 12:08am PT
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It IS the job of the teacher to love the child;.....I teach kindergarten, and many of these kids aren't loved at home;....they are mistakes, expensive, noisy, messy, naughty, dumb, stinky, in the way, a pain in the ass, and interfere with parent's/guardian's partying.......and I do encourge/teach them in ways that aren't on any standardized test or considered academia;........I encourge/teach them to say please/thank you, not to hit or hurt, to wash their hands, say excuse me, not to pick their boogers and eat them, not to steal from me, to share, to try to do their best, to be a friend, to enjoy school and have a good attitude, to try new things, that everyone should be treated kindly, to forgive, to apologize, ....and I praise them for good work, good decisions, sharing, being kind, good effort, problem solving, and hangin' in there.......Stuff many parents do, but some don't;....teachers take in the slack;.......sticking strickly to academia sounds good on paper, but in the real classroom, it just don't float......
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Feb 13, 2009 - 12:21am PT
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Good work, Todd.
Of course, in say 7th/8th grade, "tough love" might be the equivalent,
since some of the kids are testing the teacher to see if they can hijack the classroom.
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Rankin
climber
Bishop, CA
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Feb 13, 2009 - 12:22am PT
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Todd, my teaching experience (very little) was mostly middle school and high school. Certainly not kindergarten. What I did see was that schools that put an emphasis on discipline were much better learning environments. When you have a kid dropping the f-bomb in your class, it's a little hard to set the mood.
I don't think a loving teacher is a bad teacher, but the contrary. But my experience tells me that schools that do not have a respected authority system are hell holes. At some point, children who are underperforming and misbehaving have to be treated as a problem, not as a son or daughter. The burden on our schools is too great if we cannot set some boundaries for what is the responsibility of our schools. Otherwise, academia will fail, and kids that could do well in school will suffer.
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