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casey
climber
oakland
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Jun 16, 2005 - 05:07pm PT
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i was out at the leap tues & weds, and there were quite a few dogs at the base. all very friendly, we had no troubles (but i love dogs).
one big thing to consider for dog owners at a place like lover's leap is that there are usually many parties on the wall, many parties of 3, and lots of newer climbers. they probably drop a lot of crap. esp on popular routes that are clogged or looser routes (psychadelic tree was kinda loose). all the dogs we saw were asleep right underneath the routes. i would worry about a #1 cracking my dog on the skull from the clusterf*ck on the line or something.
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Good Morning!
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jun 16, 2005 - 07:47pm PT
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My vote:
No Dogs
(Can we do something about all the climbers?)
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Jun 17, 2005 - 01:29am PT
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regarding babies at the craggs-
i am far more troubled by the though of rockfall (or gear-fall) tagging some defenseless 2 year old than I am about the thought of a dog getting tagged, but that doesn't stop a few mommies from spreading out a blanket and a few dozen tonka toys about 12 feet from the wall buy church bowl or surrealistic pillar...
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Blight
Social climber
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Jun 17, 2005 - 06:02am PT
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I take my dog to the crags every time I go just to annoy intolerant f*#ktards like the morons here. I've trained my dog to bark at you, piss on your gear and eat your food when you're climbing.
I can't believe how many grown people here are scared of dogs.
For f*#k's sake.
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Weenis
Trad climber
Shastafaria
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Jun 17, 2005 - 11:14am PT
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Some years ago at Smith there were about five huge dogs. Total cluster. Barking, snapping, fighting. The owners all had this "Holier than thou" attitude. The vibe was bad everywhere all day. A few weeks later I hiked into Castle Crags to solo a route and here is one of those mean dogs at the base of the route. Well, at the start of the trail into this WILDERNESS AREA there is ample signage making it very clear- NO DOGS! The climbers were a few pitches up with 3 or 4 to go and their dog starts barking and trying to defend the start of the route. The climbers see everything and say nothing. I hurled up some of my feelings and chased off the dog.
If I hadn't worked with and trained dogs, specifically military K-9's, I might have been a little scared.
If the dog had messed with me it would have been toast. And then I would have told the RANGERS and then I would...
Don't bring your dogs to the crags or Wilderness areas. An altercation could cost you a lot of money, or your dog.
These are beautiful animals, know their limits.
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Blight
Social climber
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Jun 17, 2005 - 11:20am PT
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Oooh, and we can't have the "vibe" being bad now can we? That would be just terrible. If something as commonplace as a barking dog is all it takes to ruin your entire day, you must lead a very disappointing life.
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Weenis
Trad climber
Shastafaria
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Jun 17, 2005 - 12:17pm PT
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It takes quite a bit to "ruin my day", dogs barking being the least of it. Self righteous Bloats that are angry at their own lives... well, I usually go solo where I won't find them either.
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BKW
Mountain climber
Central Texas
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Jun 17, 2005 - 01:24pm PT
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Friends of mine recently had their dog killed by rockfall in Mexico. She usually ran around wild while they climbed, (no leash laws in Mex.) but this time she was lounging at the base waiting for her owner to return. She was an awsome dog and will be missed.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jun 17, 2005 - 05:20pm PT
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I think this thread is a metaphor for many issues where people are divided on a topic. I've noticed that those insisting on having their dogs anywhere they damn well choose seem to promote the following traits:
1. Selfish. What I want is all that matters, and if you don't have total tolerence for my bidding and my cur, there's something wrong with you.
2. Various degrees of disregard for what others think or feel.
3. Crazy deflections, like diverting the question of having dogs in the wilds, to questions about, or even atacks on, us humans--namely, "your" problems and shortcomings.
4. According dogs human rights in the name of equality to all living things and all that "back room hand jive."
I conclude that some folks simply can't tall the difference between dogs and human beings, and in some cases, have confused the cur for the Joe.
JL
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Jun 17, 2005 - 05:29pm PT
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Interesting. I've noticed that #1 is also the trait that seems to be the most commonly displayed by those advocating a ban on dogs.
The thought process seems to be..."I" don't like dogs therefore they should be banned from anyplace that "I" like to visit. Let's have some additional regulations applied to our open spaces so that "I" can be more comfortable. "I" like to climb therefore this area should be designated for climbers only. Selfish.
I still think that dogs tied to the base of a climb while you're climbing a multi-pitch route is a bad idea but I also agree with Blight. If the presence of a couple of dogs somehow ruins your day, you've got more serious problems.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jun 17, 2005 - 05:53pm PT
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It's not the presence of dogs, in and of itself. It's the bad dog owners. Probably around 20% of my contact with dogs at the crags has been negative, and this definitely colors my view of dogs at the crags in general.
Selfish? *I* don't like it when a dog eats my pb&j. *I* don't like it when its running around like a spaz, bumping into my leg, and standing on my rope while I'm belaying. *I* don't like it when a dog growls at me when I walk down a trail.
Yep. Selfish.
That said, I have met great people with great dogs. And I don't support a ban/more crag regulation. And while dogs have annoyed me on occasion, they have not to date ruined my day.
But I'm not sorry at all when there's no dogs there.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jun 17, 2005 - 05:54pm PT
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"Interesting. I've noticed that #1 is also the trait that seems to be the most commonly displayed by those advocating a ban on dogs."
The flaw in this argument: The person who goes to the crag with a dog brings something extra, namely the dog. The others at the crag, sans dog, are not arguing for the right to bring along--and for everyone to lump it--what they don't have (cur). And to call selfish those who do without dogs at the crags is to invert the argument away from your dog bugging folks--to which you don't give a sh#t--to calling folks selfish for wanting to be left to human company.
Another thing is that a dog would never go to a crag on their own (not many feral dogs at the cliffside), so the onus is on the folks who bring dogs to the crag to tell the rest of us why the intrusion is required or desired--beyond the fact that you whan it that way (selfish).
Anyway you shake it, if you bring a dog to the crags you're imposing your dog on others, even if the imposition is only in their heads. If that doesn't matter to you, or worse, if you don't think it should mater, then I fear you're one of those sociopaths who have mistaken dogs for humans.
JL
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toyon
climber
davis, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 17, 2005 - 06:02pm PT
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example of a defensive person turning a legitimate debate into a ridiculous absolute:
"The thought process seems to be "I" don't like dogs... "I" like to climb therefore this area should be designated for climbers only. Selfish."
funny how often you see that these days...
-st
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Jun 17, 2005 - 06:06pm PT
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Here's the thing though. Love's Leap is not designated for a single user group.
Myself and other on this site go to Lover's Leap to climb but that doesn't mean we own the place.
There are familys that live only a few hundred yards from climbers trails. If a person decides that he/she likes to use the trails to walk her Saint Bernard after work I personally believe that he/she has every right to do so.
Alas, there are always people that prefer to solve problems by making new laws and posting signs instead of trying to find a middle ground based on communication. Out of curiosity, how will the ban be enforced? Should we have rangers patrol Lover's Leap on a more active basis? Cameras in the woods? If I can get a hold of a shiny gold badge maybe you'll take the job?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley
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Jun 17, 2005 - 06:39pm PT
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Oh yeah -- we were talking about Lovers Leap...
Fact is, many if not most of the locals have dogs. LL is a dog-friendly place.
As a matter of fact, "Billie" (short for Strawbilly) used to have a beer-opener around
her neck -- and was usually there when we needed to pop a cold one, which was
more often than I care to admit. There are good dogs and bad dogs.
I agree that people shouldn't have to tolerate bad dogs. But we do for the
sake of civility. (with the post-incident name-caller above being a notable exception)
But what about bad people?
How about the idiots who go to sleep with a fire going?
How about people screaming at the top of their lungs "off belay! and "on belay!"
People slamming their car doors early in the morning.
Ect, ect, ect.
Should I yell at people to put their fire out (don't worry -- I do)
Should I yell "shut up!" to the Belay-Screamers™?
Should I yell: "Hey f*#kwad, don't slam the door so loud!"
Should I yell: "Hey as#@&%e, you left litter in the squirrel box!"
I put up with a lot of stuff I don't like. We all do.
It's nice to minimize the things we don't like, but a lot of us try to be accepting
of others--after all, isn't that what "diversity" and "tolerance" is all about?
Come on folks, this is Northern California for f*#ks sake!
Let's try to be a little more accepting of our brothers and sisters.
And remember, dogs are people too...
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jun 17, 2005 - 06:51pm PT
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The reason I'm not especially psyched about seeing dogs at the crags is that I've been biten--twice--at Suicide by "friendly" dogs who's owners asked me what I had "done" to "make" the dog bite me. In one case I didn't even see the dog till it bit me. I saw the same thing happen to another climber who proceeded to pound the dog owner into pulp--a disgusting, ridiculous and totally avoidable incident. Now, when I see a dog at the crag I naturally wonder about my legs, and realize I could do fine without the worry and the dog.
JL
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Jun 17, 2005 - 07:02pm PT
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For reference, I have two dogs and I don't bring them to Lover's Leap. I'm not afraid of them hurting anybody but I know they'll run around playing and making a general nuiscance of themselves. Monitoring the dogs would take my full attention and defeat the entire purpose of heading out to go climbing.
However, other magange just fine and I simply don't support the idea of more regulation. As Dave pointed out, we could make alls sorts of rules for all types of behavior patterns we don't like. I'd rather avoid the police state approach. That's all.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Mill Valley
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Jun 17, 2005 - 07:06pm PT
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Yikes! That sounds like the worst of the worst. No wonder those dogs bit.
The owners are/were utter freaks, plain and simple. I can see where you're coming from!
On the bright side, there's a lot of money to made suffering a dog bite in today's world.
(especially in tort-happy California)
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jun 17, 2005 - 07:18pm PT
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Don't forget though:
"Every dog gets one free bite"
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Jun 17, 2005 - 08:42pm PT
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Even if it is a dog's first bite any decent lawyer should be able to get you 3-5 K for a dog bite in CA. Why should your medical insurance pay for the dog's bite. If it is not your fault let the people know do not get mad get even You deserve the money!
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