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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 26, 2005 - 01:56am PT
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Considering all the delicate ground that was covered in both this thread and the one before it, I think it's pretty dang good that no flame war has erupted.
Maybe we all get some "God Points" from the One upstairs/within for that.
Or maybe we've just evolved...
Peace
karl
Regarding my post length, I'm just presenting my point of view, with the knowledge that few will read carefully or try to understand. And it's just fine with me that way. Once in awhile I get in a hurry and I didn't even give the Brutus masterpiece all the time it deserved. (PS Brutus, come visit with the Nurse sometime and bring whatever was in your cup when you wrote that)
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AKutzer
Trad climber
Austin, TX
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Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2005 - 02:58pm PT
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I have to say, this thread has been fascinating.
I particularly enjoyed the poetry by Brutus: Hail Discordia!
I have to find out what/where Discordia is, by the way, so if you know, let me know...
Also, the analogy of a dream is a great one; and so is that of the Bible being a map.
And Healjye and Dingus have some wicked good points, too. It looks like several sides of this thing are well-represented.
The relative lack of flame-fests is sweet and shows something pretty cool - I'm psyched that we can bounce this huge topic back and forth without getting pissed at one another.
I still haven't fully decided what to believe, but I sure am having fun trying to figure it out based on all of your comments!
In the meantime, I went to Bishop the past three days, and even though it was rippin' hot during the middle of the day (mid-90s, it was okay b/c we went skinny-dipping and then laid around like lizards in the shade from noon to 4), I got in some good climbing in the AM and PM (sans religious conflict).
Although, the boulder problem Atari (V6, at the Happy Boulders) did give me a near-religious experience: it most be the proudest, most beautiful problem in the whole damn world. I didn't even come close to sending it, but I loved trying!
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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May 27, 2005 - 03:20pm PT
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I'm in there, about 3 weeks after "fishing season" opens.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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May 28, 2005 - 06:46pm PT
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"I know that I am ,without doubt, under the tight grip of the shackles of illusion …..are you? "
um, sure. I take that as the starting point and try to work from there.
Werner how do you come up with thosoe animations and photos on such short notice? Col Klink was my favorite.
"In the begining there was this thing, then one thing lead to another ..." Genisis, via Tom Robbins
"And god made made man out of mud and gave him life.
"What is the purpose of this?" asked man.
"Does everyhting have to have a purpose?" asked God.
"Certainly! ""said man.
"Then I leave it tou you to find the purpose in this."
apologies to Kurt Vonnegut
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WBraun
climber
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May 28, 2005 - 09:36pm PT
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How do you come up with thosoe animations and photos on such short notice?
Jaybro I .......
Google,...and more google, and Col Klink was actually first found by Donny. Since I have to do so much research on microprocessors I've really learned the art of using that great search engine.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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May 28, 2005 - 10:12pm PT
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Some nice replies above, especially by Healyje.
Testament and Exodus are two of my favorite metal bands…
And I am so tempted to quote Iron Maiden again… “666, the Number of the Beast, Hell and Fire were spawned to be released…” It would still sound just as cool if they sang “616, the Number of…” instead…
Here’s one: Why is hard rock/heavy metal so greatly influenced by religion, especially Evil? I could quote applicable lyrics all day long until the keys fall out of my keyboard…
If God is Good, then Dog is Evil, because Evil is the opposite of Good and Dog is the opposite of God. Hmmm, I can’t think of too many songs about a dog, other than that stupid one by G’nR… “I used to love her, but I had to kill her…” So why does Lord Ozzy keep singing about Satan instead of his dog? Who is Satan? That animated guy with a bad sunburn above looks like he’s ready for Halloween. I thought Satan was a goat, but I’m sure that I could imagine something different… guess I’ll just have to wait and see…
There is a good article in the November 2004 issue of National Geographic, titled “Was Darwin Wrong?” that discusses the subject of evolution vs. creationism. One thing that I found amusing was that, according to a Gallup poll of 1,000 U.S. adults in the years, 1982, 1993, 1997, 1999, and 2001, the percentage of those who believed that God created humans (and evolution played no role) remained relatively constant (at least 44%) over this period of almost 20 years. Throw in some big business and you have a majority to win an election… Yikes! …but blowing sh#t up is still cool…
Werner, I found your 8,400,000 species of life… as estimated by “Srila Prabhupada, of the Hare Krishna movement.” Where does this estimation come from? Does it take into account the species that have become extinct?
A simple and quick search on the total number of species turned up these two sites:
http://www.enviroliteracy.org/article.php/58.html
http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/9h.html
AKclimber wrote:
“I did some research a while back and found that even if evolution were true, there isn't enough time in the evolutionists model for all this evolving to take place. You guys that are trying to change their minds are wasting your time.”
What type of research did you do? Do you have any references to share? Which model are you referring to? Not enough time for evolution to take place? How about viruses? HIV is able to mutate and evolve at human time-scale rates, rather than geologic time-scale rates. Do you not believe in the fossil record? 3.5 billion years is a long time. How long would it take you to count to 3.5 billion? It would take almost 111 years if you counted at a rate of one number per second. I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind – I just have fun pointing out the silliness in their arguments!
Blinny wrote:
"That God clearly doesn't fall within the narrow set of cirumstances that the arbitrary set of rules we made up and called "logic" can explain is certainly inconvenient. But to argue that he doesn't or can't exist because we don't understand and can't explain him is patently absurd and childish."
So if we don’t understand him and can’t explain him, then why bother believing in him in the first place? That seems as absurd and childish as Saturday morning cartoons. Where is the EVIDENCE? In some ancient book? Why jump to such illogical conclusions with no solid evidence to back it up? And if we’re/you’re supposed to believe, based on faith, then I might as well be convinced that there are purple cows on The Dark Side of The Moon. If I have faith, then they exist. I then can make anything exist. I’m a magician. Whatever.
Werner wrote:
”They love evolution because it enables them to believe that everything happens by chance, that there is no authority, there is no higher intelligence above them. They do not have to surrender to anyone, they do not have to serve anyone. This is the real point of science. To provide a world-view where there is no necessity for a God or any form of higher intelligence. That way humans are at the top of the ladder and the most powerful, and free to do as we like.”
Chance? Seems to me like it’s pretty orderly if you start to look at the details. You see order in electronics, right? Then why can’t that order carry over to life and evolution? Are electronics and evolution governed by two different forces?
The real point of science? That’s like me telling you the real meaning of religion…
In no way do I feel like science puts me at the top of a ladder. In fact, it humbles me and makes my existence feel quite inconsequential and minute – a single grain of sand (SiO2) washed into the sea of time.
Why does ‘order’ in nature have to be created by higher intelligence? Or is intelligence what enables us to appreciate the ‘order’ that we observe?
”We could speculate for millions of years but it would not help. We can not see what is going on and we can not see how the machine is working or what is making it work.”
Oh, but we CAN see the machine work and all of its beauty and that is what has caused us to THEORIZE that the Earth has been here for millions and billions of years (4.6 billion to be vaguely precise).
The sciences tend to compliment each other rather than contradict each other, as it seems the many religions of the world do. What kind of conclusion would one come to if each religion sold them a different story? Can everybody be right all of the time?
Seems to me like religion is a way for someone to know everything without knowing anything. It’s a crutch – the easy way out. What’s wrong with being comfortable not knowing everything? If we knew everything about everything, wouldn’t life be pretty boring? Doesn’t predetermined creation limit the need for advancing human thinking?
I have a friend here in town that I met five years ago in one of my geology classes. We became friends because of similar interests (rock hounding/geology, shooting guns…) but I don’t see him too often because I’m not on campus much anymore. The last time I saw him, he mentioned something about Creation and I was like, “Oh, I better not go there…” He then said that he was looking at a job at some sort of Creationist’s organization and how he didn’t believe in all of the science (that he just spent several years learning). I asked him how old he thought all of the granites that I am working on in the Sierra are… and he said about 6,000 years old. “What about U-Pb zircon dating?” I said. He replied that it doesn’t work, nor does carbon dating and the Grand Canyon couldn’t have formed in 6,000 years so God must have created it. I was shocked.
How can someone go through over six years of college, get a Masters degree in geology, and then decide that it’s all a bunch of BS and refute the beliefs of the majority of scientists on this planet? I think he has lost it; he gave up.
Here are a couple more random links, just for the Hell of it…
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/biology/b103/f01/web3/baird.html
http://www.fathom.com/course/10701050/session2.html
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WBraun
climber
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May 28, 2005 - 11:01pm PT
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Of course, fanatical materialists may argue that God is a mere anthropomorphic creation of the human mind—a mythological deity created by people who need to believe in some superior being. But this argument is not logical, nor does it prove anything. It is merely the opinion of certain people. We need water, but that does not mean man creates water. We also need food, oxygen and many other things that we do not create. Since our general experience is that our needs correspond to available objects existing in the external world, that we appear to need a Supreme Lord would tend to indicate that in fact there is a Supreme Lord.
In other words, nature endows us with a sense of need for things that actually exist and that are in fact necessary for our well-being. Similarly, we experience a need for God because we are in fact part of God and cannot live without Him.
At the end of Kali-yuga this same God will appear as the mighty Kalki avatara and beat the pollution out of the demons.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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May 28, 2005 - 11:30pm PT
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I do not need a Supreme Lord, therefore a Supreme Lord does not exist.
At the end of Kali Yuga is the summit of Half Dome.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 28, 2005 - 11:43pm PT
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What you "believe" disappears whenever you're not thinking about it.
What are "are" endures in your every act, and can be shaped by your religion, your pursuit of science, or spirituality, or even climbing, or raising a family.
Life puts lessons and tests in front of you. What you learn from them and how you "evolve" as a result, moulds who you are.
Whether it's science or religion, we tend to believe what we want to believe. It takes courage to question your beliefs to get closer to the truth, and yet, we all must do that if our vision is to get clearer, since nobody has 20/20 vision out of the gate.
Interesting reading on "The neurobiology of mass delusion"
http://www.willitsnews.com/Stories/0,1413,253~27832~2891502,00.html
Peace
karl
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climberweenie
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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May 29, 2005 - 01:06am PT
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To gain insight into semi-rigid attitudes about religion and science, look at your parents and what they believed. How much is your belief and/or proof system a function of their preferred systems? in other words, do your predilections closely follow theirs, or are they 180 degrees different? (both cases you surrender control to parents, not creating room for developing your own viewpoint).
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WBraun
climber
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May 29, 2005 - 01:11am PT
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Yes the man killed his neighbor and believed he did not kill him even though deep inside his consciousness he knew he was lying to himself. After many years he actually believed he never killed the neighbor. All his friends believed it too, for he was very expert at manipulating words to give so called true meanings. He believed he had no need for truth, and truth came to him as death.
The truth can never be deceived.
I do not need the sun, therefor the sun does not exist ........
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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May 29, 2005 - 01:33am PT
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Ok, we'll see how long you last...
"Hey, turn off the Sun for a few days for me, will ya God?..."
And then God spoke the word and there were forty nights and then forty more nights...
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climberweenie
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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May 29, 2005 - 01:35am PT
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I do not need the sun, therefore I will climb Steck Salathe.
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WBraun
climber
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May 29, 2005 - 12:21pm PT
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Yes, The Sun is the eye of Narayana. Beyond the effulgent bodily rays of the lord is Supreme Lord himself.
All schemes are only useless scraps of paper in the face of war, famine, earthquakes and other disasters. All these disasters are warnings from Mother Durga, and by them she confirms her eternal superiority over the illusioned planmakers.
Yes the foolish children who do not understand things beyond their limited knowledge simply wave them way and say “It does not exsist”
The lion king of the jungle did not care for their foolish knowledge either and simply devoured them.
You simply have no power to drive away this mist!
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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May 29, 2005 - 01:25pm PT
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You simply have no power to drive away this mist!
Well, the Death Star has over 300 horsepower and the windshield wipers work pretty well...
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WBraun
climber
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May 29, 2005 - 01:52pm PT
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Lol .... ok! Good sense of humor, Minerals
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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May 29, 2005 - 05:52pm PT
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"Since our general experience is that our needs correspond to available objects existing in the external world, that we appear to need a Supreme Lord would tend to indicate that in fact there is a Supreme Lord."
Seems to me you're putting the heart before the course.
Brutus
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climberweenie
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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May 29, 2005 - 06:38pm PT
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If god (in whatever incarnation resonates with you) appeared before you and said "if you believe in me you must destroy all humanity" would you do it?
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